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1. Embed this notice
   djsumdog (djsumdog@djsumdog.com)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:06:29 JST djsumdog
   I should probably clean up /etc one day...
   • Embed this notice
     mk (mk@mastodon.satoshishop.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:09:00 JST mk

     in reply to

     @djsumdog

     it's fucking retarded that postgresql isn't able to migrate their own fucking data on major upgrades..

     fuck this pos software

   • Embed this notice
     djsumdog (djsumdog@djsumdog.com)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:15:33 JST djsumdog

     in reply to

     • mk
     meh. I'll fine dealing with it. I have a container somewhere that can load two versions. Is there anything that really challenges PostegreSQL and MySQL/MiriaDB/variants in the FOSS relational database world right now?
   • Embed this notice
     mk (mk@mastodon.satoshishop.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:17:59 JST mk

     in reply to

     @djsumdog

     how i upgrade all of my docker services (including non-postgres-databasesystems)

     $ docker compose pull && docker compose up -d

     easy...

     postgres is the only piece of shit software that has me manually copying data around..

     https://hedgedoc.satoshishop.de/ZHpbTrZTSAWVvU9WIpC42A?view

     total fucking waste of time.

   • Embed this notice
     djsumdog (djsumdog@djsumdog.com)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:21:31 JST djsumdog

     in reply to

     /boot might be worse

   • Embed this notice
     mk (mk@mastodon.satoshishop.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:23:12 JST mk

     in reply to

     @djsumdog

     yes, every non-relational database.

   • Embed this notice
     djsumdog (djsumdog@djsumdog.com)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:27:20 JST djsumdog

     in reply to

     • bronze
     These start from 2018. I moved this install from a laptop and got rid of some older ones that I think started ~2012.
     
     I've copied and rebuild this machine so much the operating system is a Ship of Theseus.
     
     I've done it enough I wrote a guide for myself: https://battlepenguin.com/tech/copying-linux-between-machines/
   • Embed this notice
     bronze (bronze@pl.kitsunemimi.club)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:27:25 JST bronze

     in reply to
     @djsumdog when i finally bothered to clean by /boot i had kernel ver 4 somethings in there
     and obviously every single ver 5 kernel i bothered to download and compile
   • Embed this notice
     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:29:00 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • mk
     @mk @djsumdog Postgres changes the binary format between major releases.
     
     The idea is that you don't migrate between major releases compulsively. It's not like opensshd, it's a language runtime with a large amount of data attached. You're supposed to be conservative about migrating.
   • Embed this notice
     mk (mk@mastodon.satoshishop.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:32:20 JST mk

     in reply to

     • pistolero

     @p @djsumdog

     "Postgres changes the binary format between major releases."

     so what? every developer has to deal with this..write migration scripts and ship it with your upgrades..this is NOT a user problem.

     "You're supposed to be conservative about migrating."

     yeah..people stop fucking upgrading and run decades old software..really great strategie.

   • Embed this notice
     djsumdog (djsumdog@djsumdog.com)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:34:23 JST djsumdog

     in reply to

     • bronze

     Yea some of that might be unnecessary. I'm working on another post about migrating to ZFS.

     I have another server I'm building out and it's got an older AMD chip in it. With ZFS I could clone my volume, chroot into it, unemerge a ton of stuff I didn't need, and then emerge and empty tree after swithcing --march=native to x86_64 (don't forget the initrd! 😅). Then I just zfs send it to another machine, use ebibootmgr to setup ZFSBootMenu and I booted the clone.

   • Embed this notice
     bronze (bronze@pl.kitsunemimi.club)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:34:24 JST bronze

     in reply to
     @djsumdog based
     ive been copying my gentoo installs around with `rsync -aAXPv`
     i gotta look into this `rsync -avxHAWXS --numeric-ids` that youre using
   • Embed this notice
     djsumdog (djsumdog@djsumdog.com)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:36:21 JST djsumdog

     in reply to

     • mk
     • pistolero
     You've never had to run a multi-cluster Postgres setup have you (a master and multiple slaves using streaming replication)?
     pistolero likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     nyanide :nyancat_rainbow::nyancat_body::nyancat_face: (nyanide@lab.nyanide.com)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:38:08 JST nyanide :nyancat_rainbow::nyancat_body::nyancat_face:

     in reply to

     • skylar :confederateflag:??? :z:
     • bronze
     @bronze @djsumdog @skylar I feel bad for the soup.
   • Embed this notice
     bronze (bronze@pl.kitsunemimi.club)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:38:09 JST bronze

     in reply to

     • skylar :confederateflag:??? :z:
     @skylar @djsumdog
     >Debian
     >cook
     I can't even say its stewing or fermenting
   • Embed this notice
     skylar :confederateflag:??? :z: (skylar@misskey.yandere.love)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:38:10 JST skylar :confederateflag:??? :z:

     in reply to

     • bronze
     @bronze @djsumdog >use debian
     >ignore it and let unattended upgrades cook
     >nothing in there but the latest 3 kernels
     nyanide :nyancat_rainbow::nyancat_body::nyancat_face: repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:38:20 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • mk
     @mk @djsumdog
     
     > so what? every developer has to deal with this..write migration scripts and ship it with your upgrades..this is NOT a user problem.
     
     No, no, the on-disk format of the data. You don't do a "migration script" for a filesystem, you release the new version of the filesystem and then everyone copies their shit over.
     
     > yeah..people stop fucking upgrading and run decades old software..really great strategie.
     
     Previous versions are still supported and get updates. This isn't a browser. What you are saying is bad. You don't auto-migrate a 10TB database.
     
     Also decades-old software is bad exactly why?
     djsumdog likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:39:03 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • mk
     @djsumdog @mk ...With zero downtime allowed.
   • Embed this notice
     mk (mk@mastodon.satoshishop.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:39:20 JST mk

     in reply to

     • pistolero

     @djsumdog @p

     the exception doesn't make the rule.

     I BET that the absolute staggering majority of all postgres installations is single database for some opensource project like peertube/mastodon.

     i don't care about your enterprise problems. go fuck off and buy a oracle subscription.

   • Embed this notice
     mk (mk@mastodon.satoshishop.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:42:50 JST mk

     in reply to

     • pistolero

     @p @djsumdog

     "You don't do a "migration script" for a filesystem, you release the new version of the filesystem"

     here's how i upgrade my filesystem:

     ```
     $ zpool upgrade hetznerBackupPool
     This system supports ZFS pool feature flags.

     Enabled the following features on 'hetznerBackupPool':
     zilsaxattr
     head_errlog
     blake3
     block_cloning
     vdev_zaps_v2
     ```

   • Embed this notice
     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:43:02 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • mk
     @mk @djsumdog
     
     > the exception doesn't make the rule.
     
     It is *designed* for that use. If you're using it and you don't like how it's designed to be used, you probably shouldn't use it.
     
     > i don't care about your enterprise problems. go fuck off and buy a oracle subscription.
     
     https://freedos.org/ :ddr_l: If you want to wade in the kiddie pool, here.
   • Embed this notice
     mk (mk@mastodon.satoshishop.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:43:55 JST mk

     in reply to

     • pistolero

     @p @djsumdog

     "Previous versions are still supported and get updates."

     why would you waste developer time like that? this is even more retarded.

   • Embed this notice
     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:44:21 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • mk
     @mk @djsumdog
     
     > here's how i upgrade my filesystem:
     
     zfs didn't change its on-disk format.
   • Embed this notice
     mk (mk@mastodon.satoshishop.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:44:57 JST mk

     in reply to

     • pistolero

     @p @djsumdog

     "You don't auto-migrate a 10TB database."

     again..a exception doesn't make the rule.

     if you have these problems, export and import your shit manually, but don't bather every fucking body else with your <1% problem.

   • Embed this notice
     mk (mk@mastodon.satoshishop.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:46:02 JST mk

     in reply to

     • pistolero

     @p @djsumdog

     "Also decades-old software is bad exactly why?"

     don't upgrade and find out.

   • Embed this notice
     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:46:06 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • mk
     @mk @djsumdog
     
     > why would you waste developer time like that? this is even more retarded.
     
     It's designed to be fast and have zero downtime. You don't buy an M1 Abrams to drive to the store then complain about the gas mileage and the roads cracking beneath it.
   • Embed this notice
     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:48:20 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • mk
     @mk @djsumdog
     
     > if you have these problems, export and import your shit manually, but don't bather every fucking body else with your <1% problem.
     
     Don't whine about `pg_dump $connection1 | psql $connection2` if you want to use the big boy software.
   • Embed this notice
     mk (mk@mastodon.satoshishop.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:49:08 JST mk

     in reply to

     • pistolero

     @p @djsumdog

     "zfs didn't change its on-disk format."

     wtf are you talking about? you can switch compression on/off WHILE you actively write a fucking file to disk..

     $ fio \
     --filename=/pool/fiotest \
     --sync=1 \
     --rw=write \
     --name=journal-test \
     --size=10000m \
     --rate=1m,1m

     $ zfs set compression=off pool
     $ zfs set compression=lz4 pool

   • Embed this notice
     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:50:18 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • mk
     @mk @djsumdog
     
     > don't upgrade and find out.
     
     Flippant; the question was intended to get you to think instead of internet-arguing. The old versions are maintained, they have bug fixes, security patches. Same with the kernel: http://kernel.org/ still maintains 5.4, can you guess why?
   • Embed this notice
     djsumdog (djsumdog@djsumdog.com)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:52:12 JST djsumdog

     in reply to

     • bronze
     Yea and cleaner ... and better in every way ... but I'm committed to this Ship of Theseus bastard image 🚢 :blobcatpirate:
     
     ...I'm not sure why. It's just kinda funny. 😋
   • Embed this notice
     bronze (bronze@pl.kitsunemimi.club)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:52:13 JST bronze

     in reply to
     @djsumdog based zfs chad
     i do snapshots of my / before every update and it saves my ass
     but for your AMD chip it would be faster to spin it up from a brand new stage3 imo
   • Embed this notice
     mk (mk@mastodon.satoshishop.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:52:15 JST mk

     in reply to

     • pistolero

     @p @djsumdog

     "It is *designed*" to be garbage software that can't even inplace upgrade itself...

     it's not a feature, it's a bug.

     you fucking idiot.

   • Embed this notice
     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:52:23 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • mk
     @mk @djsumdog Maybe that's why people keep complaining that their hipster filesystem has busted.
   • Embed this notice
     mk (mk@mastodon.satoshishop.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:53:50 JST mk

     in reply to

     • pistolero

     @p @djsumdog

     "big boy software"

     it's dinosaur software..unfortunatly a lot of devs just didn't see the meteor yet.

   • Embed this notice
     mk (mk@mastodon.satoshishop.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:55:37 JST mk

     in reply to

     • pistolero

     @p @djsumdog

     "The old versions are maintained[..]can you guess why?"

     because you're upgrade strategy is absolute garbage and people refuse to upgrade...

     you're wasting TONS of developer AND user time with this.

   • Embed this notice
     djsumdog (djsumdog@djsumdog.com)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:58:04 JST djsumdog

     in reply to

     • mk
     • pistolero

     You're not on a different version of ZFS. The version of ZFS hasn't changed in forever. You're adding new feature flags. Some of those flags will break compatibility when you upgrade the pool. That's why it's a manual process.

     High availability is the default expectation for a database. Your local dev box is the exception. When you have large postgres servers (multiple TB), you need logical replications to your new replica set, promotion and failover. Postgres's core data model is not at all like a file system version feature flag update.

     It's not some "enterprise" feature. I've done it on clusters as small as 4 nodes. It's what happens behind the scenes on those fancy "cloud" instances.

     pistolero likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     mk (mk@mastodon.satoshishop.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 14:59:25 JST mk

     in reply to

     • pistolero

     @djsumdog @p

     "The version of ZFS hasn't changed in forever."

     forever == 5 days ago
     https://github.com/openzfs/zfs/releases

   • Embed this notice
     djsumdog (djsumdog@djsumdog.com)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 15:00:03 JST djsumdog

     in reply to

     • mk
     • pistolero
     The filesystem format version! Not the tool/kmod version.
     pistolero likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     mk (mk@mastodon.satoshishop.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 15:00:37 JST mk

     in reply to

     • pistolero

     @djsumdog @p

     "You're adding new feature flags. Some of those flags will break compatibility when you upgrade the pool. That's why it's a manual process."

     so what? downgrade doesn't work with you copying data..this isn't the topic we're talking about.

     we're talking about UPGRADING you're software.

   • Embed this notice
     mk (mk@mastodon.satoshishop.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 15:01:14 JST mk

     in reply to

     • pistolero

     @djsumdog @p

     "High availability is the default expectation for a database."

     the majority of people use relational databases without any of your enterprise bullshit.

     so no. it's not.

   • Embed this notice
     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 15:01:48 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • mk
     @mk @djsumdog Do you know how bug-riddled "support N versions of the same on-disk format" is going to be? Do you know how Postgres even works? Do you know the difference between v12 and v13? Do you have to support any extensions? Do you use any? Do you know how to port an extension that supports one version to a new version?
     
     This is real work real people have to do or shit breaks: your minor inconvenience is nothing.
     
     Go ask on the Postgres mailing list: https://www.postgresql.org/list/ . Tell them that you're angry it's a mailing list instead of Discord, too, see how that goes over.
   • Embed this notice
     mk (mk@mastodon.satoshishop.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 15:03:16 JST mk

     in reply to

     • pistolero

     @djsumdog @p

     "The version of ZFS hasn't changed in forever."

     i upgraded my pools on 2024-10-15 and since then there's at least one more pool-upgrade available.

     what's your definition of "forever"

   • Embed this notice
     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 15:03:31 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • mk
     @mk @djsumdog I think you genuinely don't know the difference between shit written by computer scientists and an Electron app. Good luck, man.
   • Embed this notice
     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 15:04:00 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • mk
     @mk @djsumdog Your time doesn't matter.
   • Embed this notice
     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 15:05:34 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • mk
     @mk @djsumdog
     
     > the majority of people use relational databases without any of your enterprise bullshit.
     
     :alexjones: PLEASE BREAK THE INTENDED USE OF THIS SOFTWARE SO THAT I DON'T HAVE TO WRITE A PIPE EVER
   • Embed this notice
     BSD/r000t (r000t@ligma.pro)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 15:07:05 JST BSD/r000t

     in reply to

     • mk
     • pistolero

     @mk
     I can't hear you guys over my penis being so amazingly spectacularly enormous on account of my use of sqlite3
     @p @djsumdog

     pistolero likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     mk (mk@mastodon.satoshishop.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 15:07:46 JST mk

     in reply to

     • pistolero

     @p @djsumdog

     "Your time doesn't matter."

     this is what you're telling postgres users? majority small and medium sized companies..

     ---

     Company Size Distribution

     Small companies (<50 employees): 43%
     Medium-sized companies: 42%
     Large companies (>1000 employees): 15%

     https://enlyft.com/tech/products/postgresql

     ---

     i bet that the majority of them don't have any of your high-availabilty enterprise problems and just want it to fucking work without extra support hours.

   • Embed this notice
     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 15:14:52 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • mk
     @mk @djsumdog
     
     > majority small and medium sized companies..
     
     My entire career has been spent either working at or running that type of company.
     
     > i bet that the majority of them don't have any of your high-availabilty enterprise problems
     
     Literally every company I have ever worked at cares about this. Any hacker that gives a damn about his work cares about zero downtime. Maybe it doesn't matter in .de if your shit is broken but it sure as hell does here.
   • Embed this notice
     mk (mk@mastodon.satoshishop.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 15:16:16 JST mk

     in reply to

     • pistolero

     @p @djsumdog

     high-availibility != downtime.

     you'd have less downtime with a fucking databasesystem that's able to inplace-upgrade itself.

     wtf are you talking about?

   • Embed this notice
     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 15:20:57 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • mk
     @mk @djsumdog
     
     > high-availibility != downtime.
     
     Availability is literally defined in terms of downtime.
   • Embed this notice
     skylar :confederateflag:??? :z: (skylar@misskey.yandere.love)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 18:07:18 JST skylar :confederateflag:??? :z:

     in reply to

     • bronze
     @bronze @djsumdog debian packages being aged in oak barrels before they're rolled into the repository (2019, colorized)
     snacks likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 07:18:00 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • roland
     • mk
     @roland @djsumdog @mk It's not like the RDB or anything, semantics change, the APIs that extensions use change. There are plenty of community-developed scripts for simple upgrades of small clusters. FSE (not "enterprise") is 611GB on disk. When I did the upgrade to 16.2, it took a while: these upgrades have to be done deliberately. It's not quite as bad as Python 2 to Python 3 but it's closer to that than updating to a new version of some random application. The closer you get to the base levels of the system, the more careful you have to be, and for most uses of a database (the uses for which Postgres is designed), data loss and downtime are unacceptable, some query that was fast suddenly gets slow, you can't have that. And how do you even do that across distros? Maybe his distro should provide that script; Debian does if I recall correctly, but he's shoving everything into Docker containers, and Docker containers tend to offload the heavy storage stuff until they can't.
   • Embed this notice
     roland (roland@f.haeder.net)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 07:18:04 JST roland

     in reply to

     • mk
     • pistolero

     @mk @p @djsumdog I can understand you both. On one hand, software X can migrate/upgrade its file structure (e.g. "binary format") by itself by running automatically some migration/upgrade script. These scripts can be bound to version numbers (when the upgrade takes place) so the user=admin isn't bothered by it. The "in-place" migration also forces the upgrade on the user=admin.

     But it seems like #PostgreSQL seem to follow an other philosophy that says that administrators are the responsible persons and it should be in their full control when the migration/upgrade should take place. So they don't want to force the upgrade on the admin's decision-making progress and let him decide whenever it takes place.

     So what would be the solution? A simple script like pg_upgrade.sh that the administrator can manually run or for those people like @mk is that the installer asks "Should pg_upgrade.sh run for your automatically?" and it is done then during upgrade.

   • Embed this notice
     mothball蛾玉 (西洋巣酸の木) (moth_ball@shitposter.world)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 07:18:06 JST mothball蛾玉 (西洋巣酸の木)

     in reply to

     • mk
     • pistolero
     @p @djsumdog @mk that's probably more on the way programmers are taught in general these days but what do I know. I like this thread.
     pistolero likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 07:23:13 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • mk
     • mothball蛾玉 (西洋巣酸の木)
     @moth_ball @djsumdog @mk It is difficult to get across things like "This is different, there are reasons it is different, stop crying long enough to figure out how I/O works."
     
     The big problem is that Ubertuber doesn't ship with the BSD fortunes so that wisdom and understanding are dumped on you when you log in:
     
     > When someone says "I want a programming language in which I need only say what I wish done," give him a lollipop.
   • Embed this notice
     RedTechEngineer (redtechengineer@fedi.lowpassfilter.link)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 09:51:33 JST RedTechEngineer

     in reply to

     • roland
     • mk
     • pistolero
     @p @djsumdog @roland @mk
     > It's not quite as bad as Python 2 to Python 3
     I refuse to believe you don't still have something relying on python 2.
     pistolero likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 09:52:17 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • RedTechEngineer
     • roland
     • mk
     @RedTechEngineer @djsumdog @mk @roland I don't even write much Python and I am certain that I have a bunch of shit that would break if I ditched Python 2.
   • Embed this notice
     djsumdog (djsumdog@djsumdog.com)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 09:59:24 JST djsumdog

     in reply to

     • RedTechEngineer
     • roland
     • mk
     • pistolero

     Really? I don't think I've written any Python 2 in at least 5 years. The package isn't even available anymore in most Linux distros. Pretty much every major library has been updated by now.

     If you still have Python2 scripts 2to3 usually gets you 99% of the way there.

   • Embed this notice
     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 10:07:36 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • RedTechEngineer
     • roland
     • mk
     @roland @djsumdog @mk @RedTechEngineer Unlikely; if it was 1:1 then it wouldn't require porting to begin with. You could maybe have a bot attempt it, but the bot would have to decipher what the original author *meant* to do rather than what they actually did.
     
     For example, Python 3 changed how strings were handled. Probably in most cases this is trivial, but sometimes when reading the code, a machine wouldn't be able to tell if it was intended to handle ASCII or UTF-8 or binary data. And that's one semantic change: a lot of libraries went away, so how do you automate that? Just dump the library code into the middle of the file, or select a new API? Can you automate the process of translating a web2py application into a Django one? A lot of these things you can't really automate: you need to make decisions about what to do, which requires you to understand why the code exists.
     djsumdog likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     roland (roland@f.haeder.net)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 10:07:39 JST roland

     in reply to

     • RedTechEngineer
     • mk
     • pistolero
     @RedTechEngineer @mk @p @djsumdog Yes, you are correct. It takes time to port #python2 code to #python3 style. I might be wrong but maybe that can be automated to some point?
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     RedTechEngineer (redtechengineer@fedi.lowpassfilter.link)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 10:07:42 JST RedTechEngineer

     in reply to

     • roland
     • mk
     • pistolero
     @roland @djsumdog @p @mk
     > It takes time to port #python2 code to #python3 style.
     That's why there was a 6 year deprecation notice put out 11 years ago. It's been EOL for 5 years. 😭
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 10:12:16 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • RedTechEngineer
     • roland
     • mk
     @roland @djsumdog @mk @RedTechEngineer Well, Python 3 was a big change. All of my Ruby 1.8(!!) code still works in 3.4, most PHP stuff is the same, but in Python's case, it's got less to do with code, it's a coordination effort: lift the world without moving it.
     
     Jython, for example, is still only compatible with Python 2.7. People that use Jython still have to write 2.7 code: if you want your Python code to talk to Scala, you have to write code that works on Python 2. So you write a library that bridges some code written in Java with some code written in Python and then someone else's Scala depends on it, you can't just wave a wand.
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     roland (roland@f.haeder.net)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 10:12:18 JST roland

     in reply to

     • RedTechEngineer
     • mk
     • pistolero
     @RedTechEngineer @mk @p @djsumdog Ops ... Slow lazy developers again. :frown: Hey devs, port your damn software! Even my software started with PHP 4 (!) and runs on PHP 8 now. Yes, runs. But with deprecated stuff like array() instead of [] and still with closing PHP tag ?>. Shame on me! 😂
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     RedTechEngineer (redtechengineer@fedi.lowpassfilter.link)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 10:12:26 JST RedTechEngineer

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     • roland
     • mk
     • pistolero
     @roland @djsumdog @p @mk php is a different beast.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 10:13:55 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • RedTechEngineer
     • roland
     • mk
     @djsumdog @roland @RedTechEngineer @mk
     
     > The package isn't even available anymore in most Linux distros.
     
     I don't know what distros you mean, but I have both installed on this machine, at least.
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     RedTechEngineer (redtechengineer@fedi.lowpassfilter.link)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 10:14:00 JST RedTechEngineer

     in reply to

     • roland
     • mk
     • pistolero
     @p @djsumdog @roland @mk strings are gay
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     roland (roland@f.haeder.net)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 10:16:49 JST roland

     in reply to

     • RedTechEngineer
     • mk
     • pistolero
     @RedTechEngineer @mk @p @djsumdog Yes, it is. But practically the same change foo into bar to avoid deprecation removal. 😄
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 10:18:09 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • RedTechEngineer
     • roland
     • mk
     • pistolero
     @djsumdog @RedTechEngineer @mk @roland Apparently Ubertuber is going to be supporting 2.7 into 2028, Red HEL and CentOS into 2029.
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     ins0mniak (ins0mniak@majestic12.airforce)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 10:18:16 JST ins0mniak

     in reply to

     • RedTechEngineer
     • mk
     • pistolero
     @p @djsumdog @RedTechEngineer @mk use lua
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 10:20:43 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • RedTechEngineer
     • mk
     • ins0mniak
     @ins0mniak @RedTechEngineer @djsumdog @mk This dude replaced the Dis VM with Lua in Inferno in order to make it possible to supplement Inferno with Lua nodes: https://github.com/jvburnes/node9 . There's also a Lua port to Plan 9 (though I suspect luaposix does not work), but it took a little tweaking to make it compile. (I didn't go past "Hello, World!", I just use awk and rc for scripts on Plan 9.)
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     djsumdog (djsumdog@djsumdog.com)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 10:25:23 JST djsumdog

     in reply to

     • RedTechEngineer
     • roland
     • mk
     • pistolero
     Yea, I was guessing you were talking about old simple, one task scripts. I did have to port some Python2 to 3 on a few projects. Some of it wasn't that bad, but there were some things that took a while.
     
     I commend the efforts of the BeautifulSoup4 devs who had to deal with the entire SGML parser being removed.
     
     The 90% number was hyperbolic. It does spit out what it can't auto fix, and I just hoped the process had gotten better now that most libraries/frameworks have been ported over. I haven't had to do any py2->3 porting in years either. 😋
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     djsumdog (djsumdog@djsumdog.com)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 10:26:53 JST djsumdog

     in reply to

     • RedTechEngineer
     • roland
     • mk
     • pistolero
     Damn ... Python 2 is the fucking VB6 of (Enterprise) Linux!
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     djsumdog (djsumdog@djsumdog.com)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 10:28:37 JST djsumdog

     in reply to

     • RedTechEngineer
     • roland
     • mk
     • pistolero
     I bet Python 2 is probably still embedded in GIS programs too. ArcGIS was using VisualBaisc for Applications (VBA, a VB6 bastard stepchild) in 2012, and had added Python 2 support. Most of the professors refused to move from VBA to Python.
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     ins0mniak (ins0mniak@majestic12.airforce)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 10:41:56 JST ins0mniak

     in reply to

     • RedTechEngineer
     • mk
     • pistolero
     @p @djsumdog @RedTechEngineer @mk Somehow I never noticed it until a few weeks ago but go has binaries on their website for both amd64 and arm plan9.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 10:43:28 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • RedTechEngineer
     • mk
     • ins0mniak
     @ins0mniak @RedTechEngineer @djsumdog @mk Yeah, it builds fine. I actually build the Linux binaries on the Plan 9 machine and ship them across sshfs.
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     ins0mniak (ins0mniak@majestic12.airforce)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 11:23:56 JST ins0mniak

     in reply to

     • RedTechEngineer
     • mk
     • pistolero
     @p @djsumdog @RedTechEngineer @mk
     
     fucking binaries.....tar files I mean
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 11:26:16 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • RedTechEngineer
     • roland
     • mk
     @djsumdog @roland @RedTechEngineer @mk
     
     > Yea, I was guessing you were talking about old simple, one task scripts.
     
     I used to write those in Ruby unless I had a reason; nowadays they're in awk unless I have a reason (e.g., JSON). So I can sit down at a terminal in 1985 and be fine, ha.
     
     > The 90% number was hyperbolic. It does spit out what it can't auto fix,
     
     Yeah, I think, like...half the time it's easier to just put the old code on the left, an empty buffer on the right, and do a rewrite.
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     roland (roland@f.haeder.net)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 11:27:02 JST roland

     in reply to

     • RedTechEngineer
     • mk
     • pistolero
     @p @mk @RedTechEngineer @djsumdog That's total madness.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 11:27:19 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • RedTechEngineer
     • roland
     • mk
     @roland @djsumdog @mk @RedTechEngineer That's the work. It's not a code problem, it's a coordination/deployment problem.
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     ins0mniak (ins0mniak@majestic12.airforce)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 11:27:36 JST ins0mniak

     in reply to

     • RedTechEngineer
     • mk
     • pistolero
     @p @djsumdog @RedTechEngineer @mk It's delightful man. so much of what I like to do is in go.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 11:28:08 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • RedTechEngineer
     • mk
     • ins0mniak
     @ins0mniak @RedTechEngineer @djsumdog @mk When I'm not fighting the language, I like it a lot. I'm fighting it less but still some infelicities once in a while.
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     þernia (pernia@cum.salon)'s status on Monday, 13-Jan-2025 11:28:18 JST þernia

     in reply to

     • RedTechEngineer
     • mk
     • ins0mniak
     • pistolero
     @p @djsumdog @RedTechEngineer @ins0mniak @mk go's so based for that
     pistolero likes this.