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   Jackie (burnoutqueen@todon.nl)'s status on Wednesday, 08-Jan-2025 13:31:52 JST Jackie

   "true socialism has never been tried" is a lie.

   Socialism has been tried, and it works. The problem is making it last

   • Embed this notice
     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 08-Jan-2025 13:31:48 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • ROZALIA SOFIA

     @burnoutqueen @redrozalia "Worker ownership" is not a meaningful condition for justice when you can have millions of units of production with 1-5 workers (very possible with modern manufacturing technology). The focus needs to be public good not worker good.

   • Embed this notice
     Jackie (burnoutqueen@todon.nl)'s status on Wednesday, 08-Jan-2025 13:31:49 JST Jackie

     in reply to

     • ROZALIA SOFIA

     @redrozalia

     Worker ownership and control of production

   • Embed this notice
     ROZALIA SOFIA (redrozalia@cyberpunk.lol)'s status on Wednesday, 08-Jan-2025 13:31:51 JST ROZALIA SOFIA

     in reply to

     @burnoutqueen
     could you define socialism? with respect to that which has been tried and works.

   • Embed this notice
     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 08-Jan-2025 13:36:27 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • ROZALIA SOFIA

     @burnoutqueen @redrozalia Right. What I'm trying to say is that our concepts need to evolve to match the modern world. The classical ideas of socialism aren't sufficient. We can't center labor in a vastly post-labor-scarcity world.

   • Embed this notice
     Jackie (burnoutqueen@todon.nl)'s status on Wednesday, 08-Jan-2025 13:36:28 JST Jackie

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker
     • ROZALIA SOFIA

     @dalias @redrozalia

     The definition I provided is a little loose but it conveys what socialist ownership is in a historical sense

   • Embed this notice
     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 08-Jan-2025 13:47:31 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • Jess👾
     • ROZALIA SOFIA

     @JessTheUnstill @burnoutqueen @redrozalia Maybe not. But I see it less as my "pet issue" and more that the ideas that may well have worked at some point are going to rapidly lose viability as capital learns it can virtually eliminate dependency on labor, which I think is relevant here.

   • Embed this notice
     Jess👾 (jesstheunstill@infosec.exchange)'s status on Wednesday, 08-Jan-2025 13:47:32 JST Jess👾

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker
     • ROZALIA SOFIA

     Was it really helping to jump in and divert the conversation to your own pet issue here?

     @dalias @burnoutqueen @redrozalia

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 08-Jan-2025 13:50:59 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • Jess👾
     • ROZALIA SOFIA

     @burnoutqueen @JessTheUnstill @redrozalia Not AI. AI is a scam. But manufacturing technology is real. For example, Chinese factories that used to rely on large scale cheap labor are rapidly transitioning to CNC/robotics with very few workers. When that happens for garment manufacture (it's coming) the effects will be extreme.

   • Embed this notice
     Jackie (burnoutqueen@todon.nl)'s status on Wednesday, 08-Jan-2025 13:51:00 JST Jackie

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker
     • Jess👾
     • ROZALIA SOFIA

     @dalias @JessTheUnstill @redrozalia

     Capital will always rely on labor. Ai isn't replacing ANYBODY lmao.

   • Embed this notice
     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 08-Jan-2025 13:51:44 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • Jess👾
     • ROZALIA SOFIA

     @redrozalia @JessTheUnstill @burnoutqueen I'm not talking about "AI".

   • Embed this notice
     ROZALIA SOFIA (redrozalia@cyberpunk.lol)'s status on Wednesday, 08-Jan-2025 13:51:46 JST ROZALIA SOFIA

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker
     • Jess👾

     @dalias
     @JessTheUnstill @burnoutqueen
     no, it cannot. that is something capitalist propaganda repeatedly claims, but no evidence exists for it. capital creates its own crisis as it constantly tries to reduce its dependence on labor, but in fact labor is the only reason it can make a profit. the a.i. boom is a bubble that is well on its way to busting.

     Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br) likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 08-Jan-2025 19:16:05 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • Jess👾
     • ROZALIA SOFIA
     • Kohrokho

     @kohrokho @JessTheUnstill @burnoutqueen @redrozalia Yes. The only just and sustainable outcome has mass production ending and replaced with repair and self-production/local-production on demand of parts needed for said repairs and small amounts of replacement.

     I don't see the socialist program as being able to get us there, even if it has a lot of shared values.

   • Embed this notice
     Kohrokho (kohrokho@sk.unix.dog)'s status on Wednesday, 08-Jan-2025 19:16:12 JST Kohrokho

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker
     • Jess👾
     • ROZALIA SOFIA

     @dalias@hachyderm.io @burnoutqueen@todon.nl @JessTheUnstill@infosec.exchange @redrozalia@cyberpunk.lol Personally, I'm waiting for self-production, not mass production, because even with mass production, you need a fully or near fully automated supply chain for reduced scarcity, too. With self production you are able to source a much smaller amount of resources to reach a goal which increases the environments and conditions in which you are able to produce.
     
     The scarcity condition is technological in nature due to inefficient control and distribution of resources, and the sheer scale of mass resources being effectively distributed as implied by post scarcity implies that either there is a very good distribution system or that people have very high technologically enabled resourcefulness.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 08-Jan-2025 22:21:28 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • Jess👾
     • ROZALIA SOFIA
     • Kohrokho

     @burnoutqueen @kohrokho @JessTheUnstill @redrozalia That's only true when the machine has to be specialized to what it's making, and amortizing the cost of the specialized machine typically requires producing far more items than actually needed, the manufacturing demand for them with marketing.

     The solution is machines which are general purpose, with no expensive reconfiguration, molds, etc. per-item, only programming that can be instantly copied at no cost.

   • Embed this notice
     Jackie (burnoutqueen@todon.nl)'s status on Wednesday, 08-Jan-2025 22:21:30 JST Jackie

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker
     • Jess👾
     • ROZALIA SOFIA
     • Kohrokho

     @dalias @kohrokho @JessTheUnstill @redrozalia

     There is a problem with local production: it's more efficient to have 1 machine make a thousand widgets than it is to have 100 machines in a bunch of different areas make 10 widgets each. There's only one thing to fix that way. 1 machine takes up fewer resources than 100 machines. There is a reason economies of scale exist in real life.

   • Embed this notice
     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 08-Jan-2025 22:46:18 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • Jess👾
     • ROZALIA SOFIA
     • Kohrokho

     @burnoutqueen @kohrokho @JessTheUnstill @redrozalia 3D printers are the popular tip of the iceberg (and an awesome gateway tool to building further machines) but there are so many more domains the same approach can be applied to.

   • Embed this notice
     Jackie (burnoutqueen@todon.nl)'s status on Wednesday, 08-Jan-2025 22:46:20 JST Jackie

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker
     • Jess👾
     • ROZALIA SOFIA
     • Kohrokho

     @dalias @kohrokho @JessTheUnstill @redrozalia

     I want better 3d printers as much as you do.