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   Adrianna Tan (skinnylatte@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 09:35:01 JST Adrianna Tan

   I have a hot take that ultimately a lot of the kerfuffle about immigration *everywhere* is about the growing class and wage disparity of tech money and other jobs.

   Across the world, people who work in tech hubs: have similar profiles, backgrounds, education, experience, and a lot more mobility than most others.

   Every country’s ‘native’ population that feels left out and ignored and neglected by their own situation, finds it easy to blame the ‘foreign elite’, when it’s their own elites messing them up too.

   I said it a few days ago: a software developer from Bangalore or Singapore or London or Berlin has a shorter cultural and professional distance to traverse to Silicon Valley jobs, than someone from Fresno or Salinas. What more someone from a totally different state.

   The visa gets them in, and there is some exploitation (in other ways than wages); but they aren’t the reason why ‘Americans’ aren’t getting these jobs. They’re the symptom, not the cause.

   #Immigration

   • Rich Felker repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     Adrianna Tan (skinnylatte@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 09:41:33 JST Adrianna Tan

     in reply to

     My experience working in tech jobs across the world has also shown me: while tech jobs are varied and diverse in SF and Silicon Valley, this is also where the industry ‘professionalized’ (and ossified, if you ask me) much earlier. So someone with no or very little experience is going to find it hard to break in, no matter what their nationality or immigration status.

     It’s not as easy to ‘switch roles’ or ‘industries’ (in London or Berlin or SG I can easily see someone doing software dev at a fintech place then going to like consumer, not so here). You’re defined by the last job(s) you had. It’s also harder for people with non-STEM background to get in the way it used to be >10 years ago. The ‘office jobs’ like events planning or sales.. have also professionalized. You just do that thing and only that.

     People are frustrated they don’t have a shot, especially when tech jobs feel like the only way to make a living wage these days in some cities.

     Rich Felker repeated this.
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     Carolyn (cstamp@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 09:44:05 JST Carolyn

     in reply to

     @skinnylatte I thought the Musk Twitter takeover was chilling. He stated he only wanted hardcore workers to remain, hardcore meaning a lot of overtime, sleeping in offices and no life. Those working on visas were threatened with having their visas revoked if they didn't play along. So it turns out that visas can be another source of exploitation, even for highly education, right along with folk who are in jobs requiring less education.

   • Embed this notice
     Adrianna Tan (skinnylatte@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 09:44:05 JST Adrianna Tan

     in reply to

     • Carolyn

     @CStamp in a better job market, H1Bs can quite easily switch jobs. It isn’t trivial, but it can happen. And the people who could make the switch did leave. But all that happened in a bad (and still bad) market.

     He also has a very large number of true believer type H1Bs. I know this from friends who were fired by him

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     Adrianna Tan (skinnylatte@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 09:57:00 JST Adrianna Tan

     in reply to

     And those of us who are >15 years in tech from a time when you got (eventually) well paid jobs for knowing how to turn on and off a computer (at first), and being in the right place at the right time (cities that eventually became tech hubs), don’t appreciate how hard it is to get into it now. The field needs people of all backgrounds. But at the same time, the industry has also been transformed by shareholder maximization over technological developments, above all else.

     It’s hard to make an argument ‘learn to code’! The ‘better life’ hasn’t exactly always panned out for people who did that through bootcamps and other methods, who don’t have the cultural cachet of top schools and industry relationships. Maybe it did for a while, but no longer, I think.

     Look at housing prices of all the tech hubs around the world: they are almost the same, too. Neoliberalism has made a certain same-ness about each one of these cities.

     Rich Felker repeated this.
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     Adrianna Tan (skinnylatte@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 10:25:21 JST Adrianna Tan

     in reply to

     • tessala

     @tessala yes!! It was about why all cafes look the same. The same concrete walls and ‘industrial chic’.

     A recent take on this was about ‘shoppy shops’. Retail targeting mid to high end consumes have the same look. ‘Chobani-core’ (an actual design term); and olive oil that has the same packaging, that is divorced from where it actually comes from.

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     tessala (tessala@sfba.social)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 10:25:22 JST tessala

     in reply to

     @skinnylatte your thread reminds me of two things… a critical essay I read 5 or 10 years ago about the flattening of global interior design through the spread of airbnbs and “digital nomads”…

     and a quotation from Boon Jong Ho, expressing surprise at the global appeal of “Parasite,” to the effect of -- “I thought it was just about Korea, but I realized we all live in the same country -- capitalism.”

   • Embed this notice
     Adrianna Tan (skinnylatte@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 14:53:49 JST Adrianna Tan

     in reply to

     Sometimes, I help acquaintances from China and India tech cos apply for Singapore tourist visas (citizens can apply for others). They have to send me their salary info to do that. Without fail, the people who work at the top companies in these countries make far more than the median U.S. salary, in USD.

     They have no interest in coming to the U.S. to make an average Silicon Valley salary (they already make close to this number, and live in places where this goes further).

     ‘Everyone is a wage slave!!’ Is a lot of concern commenting, ultimately rooted in the exceptionalist belief that everyone wants to come to the opportunity to come to the U.S.

     Maybe it was true 20 years ago, it’s certainly not as true now.

   • Embed this notice
     Adrianna Tan (skinnylatte@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 15:04:45 JST Adrianna Tan

     in reply to

     I’ve had comments turning their stomachs into pretzel logic, saying well tech companies are surely only spending this much money so they can exploit these people later!!!

     Sometimes, the truth is simpler. These jobs are in high demand. Everyone wants them. It’s true these companies are likely to hire across a broad swathe of the market. Because global tech is a cult, and you can only be a part of it if you are already in it.

     It has no national affiliation, or concern for workers’ rights. You’re right that a lot of exploitation happens, but not in the way that you’re all saying.

     I’ve said elsewhere: a well-compensated software developer with 15 years’ experience in Bangalore or Beijing has a better shot at a good tech job in the U.S. (or literally anywhere in the world), than a 5 years’ experience person who is a national of whatever country, no matter how arduous or tough a visa is to get.

     For example, there are almost no paths for non-EU immigration to the EU outside of marriage — unless you work in tech. We see this play out everywhere.

     It’s the class and wage and opportunity disparity of tech vs non-tech that is motivating this issue.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 15:05:53 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     @skinnylatte I've seen folks wanting to come here where I've thought "why???" in the sense that it doesn't seem like a good economic deal (worse wages relative to cost of living and buying power, vastly higher health care costs, ...) and the reasons usually come out to be things like opportunity for next generation, perceived social status, ability to get away from "home town" environment to a place where outsiders are not unusual and nominally have equal rights, etc.

   • Embed this notice
     Adrianna Tan (skinnylatte@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 15:06:06 JST Adrianna Tan

     in reply to

     • Dave ⚡️

     @dave up until a few years ago it was the main way to make FU money for people in the field. It was still largely here. But that promise has fizzled out, so yeah there isn’t much else especially considering everything else one needs to give up for.. this

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     Dave ⚡️ (dave@social.lightbeamapps.com)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 15:06:07 JST Dave ⚡️

     in reply to

     @skinnylatte

     I work in tech, in NZ for an Australian company. There are incredibly few opportunities a job could give me in Silicon Valley, that would feel like any sort of upgrade for me.

     Maybe 10 years ago, I might’ve jumped at the chance to work for Apple. These days - no way !

   • Embed this notice
     Adrianna Tan (skinnylatte@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 15:07:36 JST Adrianna Tan

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker

     @dalias for many queer / trans people, some US states are still the least bad option. EU / Australia isn’t as great on some of those things for immigrants as people assume.

   • Embed this notice
     Adrianna Tan (skinnylatte@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 15:12:22 JST Adrianna Tan

     in reply to

     • Dave ⚡️

     @dave the most progress in the field has always happened here first. Including the ossification and horrid ness of everything. I think it’ll be contagious to other markets, but I hope I’m wrong.

     The main thing I am optimistic about is there are more tech-adjacent jobs here which are less soul-sucking. I’ve certainly spent some time trying to navigate that and, I’ve been thankful that I’ve been able to access these opportunities even as an immigrant.

     The one thing I’ll say is that once you’re here, you’re rarely put into an Others bucket, unless many other migration destinations where you are made to feel your foreignness daily: socially as well as legally.

     You’re almost never asked for your immigration or citizenship status, for example, except for things like voting.

   • Embed this notice
     Dave ⚡️ (dave@social.lightbeamapps.com)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 15:12:23 JST Dave ⚡️

     in reply to

     @skinnylatte yup. And don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t judge anyone negatively who wants to try and get that FU money or to get notches on their CV they just can’t get where they are - if it’s Silicon Valley or wherever that’s the ticket for the individual then good for them, genuinely.

     But what it was, doesn’t seem like what it is, broadly, now. That ossification and homogenisation is incredibly off-putting.

     This vibe also extends to the output of tech as a whole now too tbh

   • Embed this notice
     Adrianna Tan (skinnylatte@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 15:14:19 JST Adrianna Tan

     in reply to

     • SeaFury 🦜🍉

     @SeaFury I can’t leave where I am because I actually have radical Asian American activism in Oakland and SF. It makes a difference. We also aren’t a numerical minority here, and we have a huge cultural influence as well. It’s nice to have conservative Chinese grandpas I can’t stand and also super radical Asian grandmas who protested and participated in civil rights movements. Back in Asia there was only the conservative grandpa.

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     SeaFury 🦜🍉 (seafury@aus.social)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 15:14:20 JST SeaFury 🦜🍉

     in reply to

     @skinnylatte It’s not just money. The west is so racist 😣😣😣 Some of my asian friends who came here moved back to Asia. I have lived here all my life so I have coping mechanisms. Even so, I prefer the company of POCs.

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     h4sh (h4sh@infosec.exchange)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 15:18:25 JST h4sh

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker

     @skinnylatte @dalias Yeah that's a pretty wrong assumption - many big Australian and EU cities are so much better for queer people than the US. And no first world country hates women and minorities more than the USA

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     Adrianna Tan (skinnylatte@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 15:18:25 JST Adrianna Tan

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker
     • h4sh

     @h4sh @dalias that’s why I said *some* US states, not *all*. It can be difficult to access gender-affirming care *at all* in *some countries* often thought to be *better*.

   • Embed this notice
     shellhazard (shellhazard@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 15:22:40 JST shellhazard

     in reply to

     @skinnylatte I've seen you mention this a few times, so if you don't mind me asking what concerns you about Australia's suitability for queer/trans people?

   • Embed this notice
     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 15:26:27 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     @skinnylatte Yeah, this too. I don't think about it often because the folks I've known in this situation haven't been (openly anyway) queer/trans, but that and other "freedom to be who I am" things can be a big part.

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     Adrianna Tan (skinnylatte@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 15:27:22 JST Adrianna Tan

     in reply to

     • shellhazard

     @shellhazard when I was working in Melbourne, I often encountered extremely transphobic discourse among the ‘women in tech’ folks. It’s pretty hard to get estrogen in many places especially for new immigrants.

     Personally, the daily anti-Asian commentary I received in most major Aus cities was far more difficult to work with. But I do know people who moved there who really struggled to get gender-affirming care even compared to places in the US that aren’t CA.

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     Adrianna Tan (skinnylatte@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 15:29:09 JST Adrianna Tan

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker
     • h4sh

     @h4sh @dalias France (including Paris) is also shockingly transphobic, and also very casually so. I often felt very uncomfortable

   • Embed this notice
     h4sh (h4sh@infosec.exchange)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 15:33:21 JST h4sh

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker

     @skinnylatte @dalias Yikes. Imo Berlin is probably the most queer friendly city in Europe.

   • Embed this notice
     Adrianna Tan (skinnylatte@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 15:33:21 JST Adrianna Tan

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker
     • h4sh

     @h4sh @dalias I worked in Melbourne for a while. Within progressive circles I felt fine but there was a ton of UK-aligned transphobia among cis women that I very frequently rubbed up against. Hopefully that’s better.

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     Adrianna Tan (skinnylatte@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 16:13:24 JST Adrianna Tan

     in reply to

     • SeaFury 🦜🍉

     @SeaFury there are no jobs in China now and far more closed even to people who have language skills :/

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     SeaFury 🦜🍉 (seafury@aus.social)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 16:13:25 JST SeaFury 🦜🍉

     in reply to

     @skinnylatte Your case has another layer on top! They don’t necessarily want to go back to hometowns. China is a very attractive choice ATM.

   • Embed this notice
     shellhazard (shellhazard@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 19:11:48 JST shellhazard

     in reply to

     @skinnylatte Thanks for taking the time. The anti-Asian sentiment is consistent with my experience and I'd agree the discourse is fairly behind (but not decelerating).

     Do you mind if I ask how long ago these experiences were? In Victoria at least I believe the legal accessibility of gender affirming care and identity documents is quite good now (according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_rights_in_Australia) but I can't speak specifically for how people are treated by healthcare professionals when requesting this kind of care.

   • Embed this notice
     Emelia 👸🏻 (thisismissem@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 20:49:13 JST Emelia 👸🏻

     in reply to

     @skinnylatte another factor here is the oversupply of bootcamps and the differential between what they teach and what you'll actually need — I see a lot of these bootcamps in Germany which are really just a grift for government dollars (through providing "training"), they specifically target people who can't navigate the german system & also cannot challenge them within the german system.

     I'm certain that also holds somewhat true for other countries, though maybe instead of a grift for government funding, it's a grift that saddles the person learning with bad debt or wage garnishments.

   • Embed this notice
     Ian Bicking (ianbicking@hachyderm.io)'s status on Monday, 06-Jan-2025 05:33:20 JST Ian Bicking

     in reply to

     @skinnylatte I don't live in a tech hub and... tech jobs just aren't something people think about that much.

     There's also a ton of immigrants, and they do things like roofing, working in elderly care, etc.

     I don't think tech money and H1Bs are very salient in most parts of the US, and probably the same in other countries.