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1. Embed this notice
   kravietz 🦇 (kravietz@agora.echelon.pl)'s status on Saturday, 21-Dec-2024 03:24:31 JST kravietz 🦇

   in reply to

   • Siegfried.
   @realSiegfried
   
   Of course they want to destroy democracy, because they don’t believe in democracy in the first place - they simply believe democracy is ineffective. But under democracy for the to succeed, you need people to actually vote for an anti-democratic party, making this accusation of inefficiency of democracy… true!
   
   I don’t know history of NSDAP good enough, but I know history of Bolshevik and their rise to power in 1917 was 100% result of indecisiveness of the other parties at that time.
   • NeonPurpleStar :heart_bi: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Siegfried. (realsiegfried@troet.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 21-Dec-2024 03:24:32 JST Siegfried.

     in reply to

     • Steve Herman
     • Erik Jonker

     @kravietz @w7voa @ErikJonker I would be fine, if afd would only stand against Energiewende. Might be that this is one topic, where they are fishing voters, but most important is that they simply want to destroy our democracy.

   • Embed this notice
     Erik Jonker (erikjonker@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 21-Dec-2024 03:24:33 JST Erik Jonker

     in reply to

     • Steve Herman

     @kravietz @w7voa ...indeed not everybody voting for the AfD is fascist or extreme right, but that was also the case in the 1930s in Germany. Many normal and ordinary people want something to change. The execution of the Energiewende may have been a disaster but it was and still is necessary, german car industry is dying now because they couldn't make the transformation.

   • Embed this notice
     kravietz 🦇 (kravietz@agora.echelon.pl)'s status on Saturday, 21-Dec-2024 03:24:33 JST kravietz 🦇

     in reply to

     • Steve Herman
     • Erik Jonker

     @ErikJonker

     Energiewende is just part of the puzzle - look at Merkel’s immigration policy, employment policy, financial discipline, customs policy, Green Deal and other topics used by AfD as their vehicle.

     And the execution of policies is the not some kind of minor aspect here - it’s the most important part. Everyone may recognise that things may need change, but how Energiewende was implemented, it made things actually worse not better. I think this was one of the factors that actually pushed many people into climate denialism even if they were initially neutral or supportive. Just remember what people pushing Energiewende were saying in 2010 - there were promises of clean, cheap electricity within a decade (!). Instead you got very expensive electricity made out of coal and gas when renewables don’t work.

     As for German car industry or EU industry in general, you can’t really “transform” to compete with cheap imports from China, where industry runs on cheap coal electricity and slave labour. That’s physically impossible.

     You either protect your environmentally-friendly industry with customs tariffs, like Switzerland does, or you just openly tell everyone “okay, we’re shutting down industry here and switching to cheap imports because we don’t give a shit about CO2 emitted in China and slave labour”.

     But you can’t say “oh we care very much about environment so we shut down our clean industry and import everything from China”, this just doesn’t make sense. That kind of policy is exactly what drives people towards AfD.

     @w7voa

   • Embed this notice
     kravietz 🦇 (kravietz@agora.echelon.pl)'s status on Saturday, 21-Dec-2024 03:24:35 JST kravietz 🦇

     • Steve Herman

     @w7voa

     I think the answer is a bit more complex. AfD is an interesting phenomenon in the modern politics that unifies populism with political diversity (!), attracting people whose views are not represented by the mainstream parties. The same thing is seen in “Konfederacja” in Poland, and possibly other similar parties in Europe. Most importantly, the political program of these parties is an amalgam of various rather vague proposals and criticisms, thus allowing the rejects to find “their” favourite piece there while they don’t care for the other parts (openly pro-Russian or neo-Nazi ones). In case of Germany, I don’t think there’s any other party than AfD in Germany that would openly say Energiewende is counterproductive and economic disaster - so the popularity of AfD is also a direct consequence of their denial of reality, which they call “political consensus”. Naturally, if both parties gain significant political momentum, they definitely will crystalise their programs and that’s when their former supporters may get shocked, but for now they’re welcoming everyone disappointed in the mainstream.