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1. Embed this notice
   Erin 💽✨ (erincandescent@akko.erincandescent.net)'s status on Saturday, 14-Dec-2024 06:37:16 JST Erin 💽✨

   • Christine Lemmer-Webber 🌀

   In a way, it’s a bit harder for me to talk about the values and design goals of ActivityPub. It happened in a larger standards group and involved a lot of passing of hands. I think if I were to be robust about it, I would also ask Evan Prodromou, Erin Shepherd, and Amy Guy to weigh in, and maybe they should; I think it would be nice to hear.

   The goal of ActivityPub to me, only partially realised in the decade since, was to function as a substrate to enable multiple social applications to exist within a single social graph; so that we could experiment with ideas other than (and perhaps radically different from) Twitter clones.

   In some ways I felt that the C2S API was more important than S2S - the original drafts of the spec made S2S optional, but mandated C2S. Its funny and in some ways unfortunate how that flipped.

   @cwebber
   
   RE: https://social.coop/@cwebber/113647109852249805

   • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: and Fish of Rage like this.
   • Rocketman, Christine Lemmer-Webber 🌀 and dave repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Saturday, 14-Dec-2024 06:48:48 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • Christine Lemmer-Webber 🌀
     @erincandescent @cwebber Pretty sure I shared at least part of this vision, I feel like Friendica and bits of Tumblr made me feel like GnuSocial/Mastodon was a bit too limiting, like still the "What if sms-mmorpg" of Twitter instead of actual federated (micro|macro)-blogging.
     
     At least pretty glad pixelfed/peertube/mobilizon/… got created yet can still interact with them quite well without leaving my dear instance.
   • Embed this notice
     Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Saturday, 14-Dec-2024 23:59:48 JST Strypey

     in reply to

     "ATProto does not scale wide: it's a liability to add more fully participating nodes onto the network. Meaningfully self-hosting ATProto is a risk to the ATProto network, there is active reason to disincentivize it for those already participating."

     #ChristineLemmerWebber, 2024

     https://dustycloud.org/blog/re-re-bluesky-decentralization/

     Oof. That is *not* good for the claim that BlueSky's protocol can be as friendly to decentralisation and independent hosting as the fediverse.

     IMHO that's game, set and match.

     #BlueSky #ATProto

   • Embed this notice
     Nathan Schneider (ntnsndr@social.coop)'s status on Sunday, 15-Dec-2024 11:30:11 JST Nathan Schneider

     in reply to

     • Strypey

     @strypey Great thread.

     Another value prop of all-open-source is basic algorithmic accountability.

     And I think Christine didn't give enough credit to the composable moderation stack, which I think is an important component.

   • Embed this notice
     Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Sunday, 15-Dec-2024 11:30:13 JST Strypey

     in reply to

     Back in 2017, I said;

     The Fediverse / Federation aims to eventually unite all the things that still exist into one glorious meta-thing.

     https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/fediverse-history-piece-from-2017-a-brief-history-of-the-gnu-social-fediverse-and-the-federation/4481

     To me, that remains the goal. Let's unite all the things!

     (5/5)

   • Embed this notice
     Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Sunday, 15-Dec-2024 11:30:14 JST Strypey

     in reply to

     So there's a few points to consider. I'm still not setting up a BlueSky account. But I have enabled BridgeFed interop with BS, just as I'm happy to interact with Nostr accounts here through any bridges that are available.

     As the old saying goes, all roads lead to Rome. For now at least, the roads of all alternative social networks at least pass through the outskirts of the fediverse.

     (4/?)

   • Embed this notice
     Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Sunday, 15-Dec-2024 11:30:18 JST Strypey

     in reply to

     • Ryan Barrett

     3) There is strong support for interoperation, from both BlueSky engineering staff and management.

     Titter was very encouraging of devs building third-party apps on top of their platform. But full interop with competitors was always adversarial.

     Yet we see BlueSky Issue discussions where BridgyFed creator @snarfed works through interop bugs with BS engineers. The relationship is so cordial that @EvanProdromou@socialwebfoundation has even said he considers BS a large fediverse node, like Mastodon.social.

     (3/?)

   • Embed this notice
     Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Sunday, 15-Dec-2024 11:30:22 JST Strypey

     in reply to

     • Nathan Schneider

     2) BlueSky's staff, and the people using it, have the entire history of Titter to learn from.

     Which means that although enshittification is a risk to any centralised, VC-funded platform, those involved are as aware of that as the critics. An Exit to Community could be baked into their business strategy. Where ownership passes to the workers when the VCs exit, or to the community of people using the platform.

     Imagine a social.coop the size of BS! Curious what @ntnsndr thinks of this.

     (2/?)

   • Embed this notice
     Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Sunday, 15-Dec-2024 11:30:25 JST Strypey

     in reply to

     • Christine Lemmer-Webber 🌀

     Having criticised BlueSky a *lot* over the past few months, I do want to flag a couple of things that make it qualitatively different from Titter. At least for now.

     1) their entire stack is Free Code, and their protocol is documented.

     Christine's analysis suggests that doesn't help as much for potential self-hosting as it might. But it remains true that a well-funded organisation could stand up a complete replacement of BS, using their code.

     Not true of Titter.

     (1/?)

     #BlueSky

     @cwebber

   • Embed this notice
     Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Sunday, 15-Dec-2024 11:30:30 JST Strypey

     in reply to

     • Christine Lemmer-Webber 🌀

     "In many ways, Bluesky is speedrunning the history of Twitter."

     @cwebber, 2024

     https://dustycloud.org/blog/re-re-bluesky-decentralization/

     This is exactly the comparison I've been making. Seeing it made within the context of a careful steelmanning of BlueSky's ATProto is very much a cat-that-got-cream experience for me.

   • Embed this notice
     Nathan Schneider (ntnsndr@social.coop)'s status on Monday, 16-Dec-2024 07:25:23 JST Nathan Schneider

     in reply to

     • Strypey
     • Christine Lemmer-Webber 🌀

     @strypey @cwebber I just think composable moderation is a meaningful site of decentralization, even according to Christine's definition.

     But I totally agree that, if the base flows of data are centralized, composable moderation (e.g., running a labeler or a feed) is just working someone else's plot.

   • Embed this notice
     Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Monday, 16-Dec-2024 07:25:26 JST Strypey

     in reply to

     • Christine Lemmer-Webber 🌀

     (2/2)

     @ntnsndr
     > I think Christine didn't give enough credit to the composable moderation stack, which I think is an important component

     I doubt @cwebber would disagree. But speaking for myself (far be it from me to put words in the guru's mouth), I think this is orthogonal to the discussion of the base protocols. Composable moderation can be and is being built on top of AP by people like IFTAS.

     Frankly I'm in 2 minds about this. I can see as many risks as benefits. But it's happening.

   • Embed this notice
     Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Monday, 16-Dec-2024 07:25:28 JST Strypey

     in reply to

     • Nathan Schneider

     (1/?)

     @ntnsndr
     > Great thread

     Thanks : ) I tagged you in the hopes for some comment on the prospects of an Exit to Community for BlueSky, from one of the founders of the Buy Twitter campaign and Zebras Unite : ) Do you think such a campaign would have a better chance of success this time? Why/ why not?

   • Embed this notice
     Christine Lemmer-Webber 🌀 (cwebber@social.coop)'s status on Tuesday, 17-Dec-2024 21:57:26 JST Christine Lemmer-Webber 🌀

     in reply to

     • Jessica Tallon

     @erincandescent I can assure you that @tsyesika and I also remain disappointed that AP C2S didn't take off and think it not doing so majorly hurt what the fediverse could be