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   Christine Lemmer-Webber 🌀 (cwebber@social.coop)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Nov-2024 22:17:21 JST Christine Lemmer-Webber 🌀

   Now this is interesting. Bluesky's ATProto is *explicitly designed* around people being able to replicate and index it. But here's a great example where peoples' data is being replicated and indexed and users are *furious* about it:

   https://bsky.app/profile/jasonkoebler.bsky.social/post/3lbvb5lk2qk25

   I'm not saying people are wrong for being upset, or that it's wrong to build a protocol that is built around replicated indexing

   I'm saying that if both of those seem to be butting heads, *some* sort of disconnect is happening

   • pettter and AnthonyJK-Admin repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     Christine Lemmer-Webber 🌀 (cwebber@social.coop)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Nov-2024 22:27:04 JST Christine Lemmer-Webber 🌀

     in reply to

     • mcc

     @mcc It's an interesting project for sure. Lots of the design decisions left me scratching my head but some of the other ones really influenced me

   • Embed this notice
     mcc (mcc@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Nov-2024 22:27:05 JST mcc

     in reply to

     @cwebber *quietly* I would like to try secure scuttlebutt.

   • Embed this notice
     mcc (mcc@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Nov-2024 22:27:06 JST mcc

     in reply to

     @cwebber I think the problem here is that Bluesky was designed to appeal to the kind of people who use Mastodon* and it wound up being embraced by people who wanted something that doesn't really look much like Mastodon at all, something if anything like Cohost. The underlying ideology is simply at cross purposes with the needs and desires of the actual userbase

     * This post might be more accurate if you replace "Mastodon" with "Nostr" but I know very little about Nostr.

     AnthonyJK-Admin repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     Christine Lemmer-Webber 🌀 (cwebber@social.coop)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Nov-2024 22:27:06 JST Christine Lemmer-Webber 🌀

     in reply to

     • mcc

     @mcc The interesting thing is that the lineage of both Bluesky and Nostr is Secure Scuttlebutt, which *is* private-by-default.

   • Embed this notice
     Christine Lemmer-Webber 🌀 (cwebber@social.coop)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Nov-2024 22:32:19 JST Christine Lemmer-Webber 🌀

     in reply to

     Similar things have happened on the fediverse of course. Personally I am not as opposed to having global search for *public* posts; I think that's semi-inescapable. Whether it should be opt-in or opt-out is a different thing.

     But I think what's true both on the fediverse and bluesky is that people are communicating in ways that easily *can be* indexed and which are public and I think people want more community-oriented private communication than feels "easy to do" on these systems.

   • Embed this notice
     Annika Backstrom (annika@xoxo.zone)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Nov-2024 23:11:49 JST Annika Backstrom

     in reply to

     • Folker

     @folkerschamel I think your standards are far too low. What of consent? What about reasonable expectations for how we use the commons? What about not being exploitative? Just because we *can* scrape posts, and just because someone probably will, means we should give up?

   • Embed this notice
     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Nov-2024 23:11:50 JST Folker

     in reply to

     @cwebber I think it's simple: posts on #bluesky and #mastodon are intentionally public by design. If you want to have private communication, you can use #signal.

   • Embed this notice
     Juanlu (astrojuanlu@social.coop)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Nov-2024 23:32:29 JST Juanlu

     in reply to

     @cwebber I think people have a very specific problem with AI.

   • Embed this notice
     Gert V 🇵🇸 (gert@social.coop)'s status on Thursday, 28-Nov-2024 01:16:02 JST Gert V 🇵🇸

     in reply to

     @cwebber Fully agree
     > I think people want more community-oriented private communication

   • Embed this notice
     Christine Lemmer-Webber 🌀 (cwebber@social.coop)'s status on Thursday, 28-Nov-2024 05:45:52 JST Christine Lemmer-Webber 🌀

     in reply to

     • malte

     @malte that's literally how all of atproto works: replicating the firehose and indexing it, and encouraging other orgs to replicate and index

   • Embed this notice
     malte (malte@radikal.social)'s status on Thursday, 28-Nov-2024 05:45:53 JST malte

     in reply to

     @cwebber In which way is it explicitly designed in that way?

   • Embed this notice
     Christine Lemmer-Webber 🌀 (cwebber@social.coop)'s status on Thursday, 28-Nov-2024 06:44:07 JST Christine Lemmer-Webber 🌀

     in reply to

     • malte

     @malte and emphasizes that 3rd party participation in the protocol is especially filtering over and indexing that content as one of its biggest features

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     malte (malte@radikal.social)'s status on Thursday, 28-Nov-2024 06:44:08 JST malte

     in reply to

     @cwebber I'm not so well-versed in data science, so this is perhaps above my skill level. I understand that the protocol bluesky runs on copies everything that is written through it and then makes that available for others to copy too. Is that more or less what it means?

   • Embed this notice
     Christine Lemmer-Webber 🌀 (cwebber@social.coop)'s status on Thursday, 28-Nov-2024 07:03:52 JST Christine Lemmer-Webber 🌀

     in reply to

     • Folker
     • Philip Mallegol-Hansen

     @philip @folkerschamel oof this is a complicated subject

     but "public by default" is not ActivityPub's default, it's a *special case* in the spec

     the default case is DMs

   • Embed this notice
     Philip Mallegol-Hansen (philip@mastodon.mallegolhansen.com)'s status on Thursday, 28-Nov-2024 07:03:55 JST Philip Mallegol-Hansen

     in reply to

     • Folker

     @folkerschamel If it were by design, wouldn’t that by definition be by @cwebber’s design as a coauthor of the spec?

     I think she can speak to the design of the fediverse better than the rest of us :)