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   feld (feld@friedcheese.us)'s status on Saturday, 26-Oct-2024 06:55:35 JST feld

   • pistolero
   @p
   
   
   
   > If it's targeted, that's great, but a meg of stuff, something useful should have been in there.
   
   Not really. The only good stuff in there would be the Ecto stats but they're not granular enough to be useful. Someone sharing the raw Postgres stats from pg_exporter would have been better. But
   
   
   > but "the directory listing is 187MB" is a real problem (even if it's not a pointer-chase, you're still reading 187MB from the disk and you're still copying 187MB of dirents into userspace and `ls` takes 45s), and that gets marked as a dup of a "nice to have" S3 bug, but this is the default Pleroma configuration. It's stuff you can't write off, you know? You hit real constraints.
   
   Where is the "ls" equivalent happening for Pleroma? Fetching a file by name is not slow even when there are millions in the same directory.
   
   
   > Yeah, BEAM using CPU isn't the bottleneck, though. Like I said in the post you're replying to, it's I/O.
   
   BEAM intentionally holds the CPU in a spinlock when it's done doing work in the hopes that it will get more work. That's what causes the bottleneck. It might not look like high CPU usage percentage-wise, but it's preventing the kernel from context switching to another process.
   
   And what IO? Can someone please send dtrace, systemtap, some useful tracing output showing that BEAM is doing excessive unecessary IO? BEAM should be doing almost zero IO; we don't read and write to files except when people upload attachments. Even if you're not using S3 your media files should be served by your webserver, not Pleroma/Phoenix.
   
   
   > That is cool, but if you could do that for fetching objects from the DB, you'd have a bigger bump.
   
   patches welcome, but I don't have time to dig into this in the very near future.
   
   > Anyway, I am very familiar with fedi's n*(n-1)/2 problems. (Some time in the future, look for an object proxy patch.)
   
   plz plz send
   
   > But you know, back-pressure, like lowering the number of retries based on the size of the table, that could make a big difference when a system gets stressed.
   
   patches welcome. You can write custom backoff algorithms for Oban. It's supported.
   
   
   > You could ping graf; it's easier to just ask stressed instances than to come up with a good way to do stress-testing.
   
   Everyone I've asked to get access to their servers which were stuggling has refused except mint. Either everyone's paranoid over nothing or far too many people have illegal shit on their servers. I don't know what to think. It's not exactly a motivator to solve their problems.
   
   > Oh, yeah, so 403s? What counts as permanent?
   
   Depends on what it is. If you get a 403 on an object fetch or profile refresh they're blocking you, so no point in retrying. If it was deleted you get a 404 or a 410, so no point in retrying that either... (when a Delete for an activity you didn't even have came in, it would put in the job to fetch the activity it was referencing... and kept trying to fetch it over and over and over...)
   
   > You think you might end up with a cascade for those? Like, if rendering TWKN requires reading 10MB...
   
   No, I mean it was hanging to fetch latest data from remote server before rendering the activity, which was completely unnecessary. Same with rich media previews -- if it wasn't in cache, the entire activity wouldn't render until it tried to fetch it. Stupid when it could be fetched async and pushed out over websocket like we do now.
   
   
   > I do have my own complaints about the whole Pleroma releases situation. I wish we were cutting releases like ... every couple weeks if not every month. But I don't make that call.
   
   > The schedule doesn't bug me. ... the following bug is a big problem, that's a basic thing that was broken in a release. Some kind of release engineer/QA situation could have caught it.
   
   Again, it wasn't broken in a release. There were two different bugs: one was that we used the wrong source of truth for whether or not you were successfully following someone. The other bug became more prominent because more servers started federating Follow requests without any cc field and for some reason our validator was expecting at least an empty cc field when it doesn't even make sense to have one on a Follow request.
   
   
   You seem to have a lot of opinions and ideas on how to improve things but nobody else on the team seems to give a shit about any of this stuff right now. So send patches. I'll merge them. Join me.
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     feld (feld@friedcheese.us)'s status on Saturday, 26-Oct-2024 07:46:16 JST feld

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     • pistolero
     @p btw I probably have to write the directory sharding by the hashes for another project soon so I might as well add that to Pleroma's Dedupe upload filter too.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Saturday, 26-Oct-2024 12:02:39 JST pistolero

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     @feld That would be great. I mean, I hacked around the problem (webvac, then Revolver) so it doesn't affect me any more, and things that occur in the future don't help with the bae.st problem I'm dealing with at the moment (it is fun trying to figure out how to store 3TB of waifus but some parts of the problem are annoying), but in general, splitting the directories up is a really good thing to do, that is cool.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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      (mint@ryona.agency)'s status on Saturday, 26-Oct-2024 17:20:04 JST 

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     • pistolero
     @feld @p >Even if you're not using S3 your media files should be served by your webserver, not Pleroma/Phoenix.
     Pretty sure it was served by Phoenix for the longest time until the docs changed to recommend using separate media subdomain in the wake of XSS paranoia. Also frontend with all its JSON blobs and emoji annotations in Enochian is served by Phoenix by default as well (I'm using a bunch of hacky nginx rules to serve it directly from my VPS instead of fetching them from my homeserver eery time a new tab is loaded).
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     feld (feld@friedcheese.us)'s status on Saturday, 26-Oct-2024 22:29:14 JST feld

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     • pistolero
     @mint @p after first load it really should be served by nginx or varnish cache tho. Ideally.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 02:56:00 JST pistolero

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     • Jerome
     @mint @feld Yeah, I forgot who said it but really early on, I remarked that Phoenix couldn't keep up and was chewing CPU because if Elixir is going to be some immutable stateless deal that it needs to have a call for IO.copy(fd1,fd2) *somewhere*, and I got an objection from one of the devs, I forget who, but there's not really a way around it: there's one way to get data out of one FD and into another efficiently and in a pure-ish functional language you have to just write some C and wrap it in something that fits the language's semantics, because it's a fundamentally FP-unfriendly task. @j probably remembers this because we both came to the same conclusion around the same time and we traded notes on nginx configuration.
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     feld (feld@friedcheese.us)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 03:15:08 JST feld

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     • pistolero
     • Jerome
     @p @mint @j All the IO stuff in BEAM/Erlang/Elixir is written in C. Same with the networking stuff like the TCP/UDP functionality, cryptography, JSON in latest OTP release, etc
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      (mint@ryona.agency)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 03:15:49 JST 

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     • pistolero
     @feld @p >Everyone I've asked to get access to their servers which were stuggling has refused except mint
     Well, giving access to the server is kinda like letting someone access your bank deposit box to check if your bills aren't counterfeit. The server I gave you access to isn't even mine and its owner was essentially MIA, so I didn't have much qualms about it.
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     feld (feld@friedcheese.us)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 07:10:15 JST feld

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     • pistolero
     • Jerome
     @p @j @mint I think this would be achieved with Stream.reduce or one of the other Stream functions. All IO related stuff (anything unixy exposed as a file, network stuff, etc) can be streamed. It obviously would've be as efficient as C because after so many reductions (function calls, mostly. Stream internally is gonna be calling itself in a loop reading chunks) it will be preempted and another process would get to run
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 07:10:16 JST pistolero

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     • Jerome
     @feld @j @mint Yeah, but last I checked (which has admittedly been a minute), there's no "Just stream this FD to this other FD until you get EOF on the first one" call. You read, then write, you've gotta do it yourself.
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     Jerome (j@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 07:14:10 JST Jerome

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     • pistolero
     @p @feld @mint lmao for the whole time bae.st was going I was serving with pleroma because I was lazy
     I just use a big cache on a dedicated nvme drive so it wasn't really ever an issue.
     feld likes this.
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     feld (feld@friedcheese.us)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 08:17:59 JST feld

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     • pistolero
     • Jerome
     @p @i @j @mint You just call the Erlang functions directly, very easy. Syntax is :module.func() instead of elixir Module.func()
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 08:18:00 JST pistolero

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     • Jerome
     @i @feld @j @mint How tricky is it to just call Erlang stuff from Elixir? Seems relatively easy, right? (Unless I am forgetting something, I think you can just call it directly.)
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     :blank: (i@declin.eu)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 08:18:01 JST :blank:

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     • pistolero
     • Jerome
     @feld @p @mint @j OTP will still let you call that fd to fd copy via sendfile(2), falling back to read and write only if the host platform doesn't support it
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     feld (feld@friedcheese.us)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 08:18:46 JST feld

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     • pistolero
     • Jerome
     @p @j @mint At that point you reach for Zigler or Rustler
     
     It's getting better and better for embedding C or Rust into Elixir/Erlang and really Elixir is getting all the attention for this.
     
     https://github.com/E-xyza/zigler
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 08:18:47 JST pistolero

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     • Jerome
     @feld @j @mint Yeah, that's why it's got to be lower-level; you don't want to put something semantically ugly in the higher level but you end up with a read giving you an immutable linked list of bytes instead of repeatedly refilling the same preallocated, aligned, contiguous region of memory. To do it without burning CPU, you can't allocate anything: it has to be loop{syscall; conditional break; syscall; conditional break;}. So the buffer can't cross into the user-level of the runtime unless you have an exact GC and you somehow have an internal allocator that can recognize that you're doing that. The former exists and I've never seen the latter, but you can tell it to copy one FD to the other without breaking the language and you can do that with a static buffer at a lower level where the semantics aren't expected to hold.
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     feld (feld@friedcheese.us)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 08:35:51 JST feld

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     • pistolero
     • Jerome
     @p @j @mint NIFs use the External Term Format. Zigler and Rustler are nice implementations and glue for Rust and Zig to make it easy to call their functions directly.
     
     With Rustler you basically just import the code into the project and add some decoration above the Rust functions you want to expose to specify what the types are, and then like magic it compiles and just works. It looks like native Elixir functions
     
     https://www.erlang.org/doc/apps/erts/erl_ext_dist.html
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 08:35:52 JST pistolero

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     • Jerome
     @feld @j @mint They tell you how to install it instead of explaining what it is (I gather it's an FFI) or what sort of thing you need at runtime; I'm not sure what the FFI that is in the version I have is but Pleroma ends up relying at some level on the system's version of OpenSSL so I gather that there must be some FFI of some sort.
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     feld (feld@friedcheese.us)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 08:36:51 JST feld

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     • pistolero
     • Jerome
     @i @p @mint @j Yeah but really who cares, like Joe says here:
     
     https://erlang.org/pipermail/erlang-questions/2011-July/059831.html
     
     I'm more interested in its ability to do stuff like this:
     
     https://www.evanmiller.org/elixir-ram-and-the-template-of-doom.html
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     :blank: (i@declin.eu)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 08:36:52 JST :blank:

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     • pistolero
     • Jerome
     @feld @p @mint @j and all the slowdown ends up being the layers of phoenix, plug, http adapter wrappers before it ends up calling out to that OTP bit
     
     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEJ1n13soWU
     
     even the classic http://erlang.org/pipermail/erlang-questions/2011-July/059782.html thread mentions sendfile, and that's 2011
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     feld (feld@friedcheese.us)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 08:49:50 JST feld

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     • pistolero
     • Jerome
     @p @j @mint wait no that's wrong that's only for cluster/node protocol
     
     The NIF ABI can be gleaned from the header file here but I don't know where the correct docs are located at, never needed them
     
     https://github.com/erlang/otp/blob/master/erts/emulator/beam/erl_nif.h
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     :blank: (i@declin.eu)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 08:57:01 JST :blank:

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     • pistolero
     • Jerome
     @feld @p @mint @j https://joearms.github.io/published/2013-11-21-My-favorite-erlang-program.html is still a better tale and example of the power of BEAM
     
     in a single line too: universal_server() -> receive {become, F} -> F() end.
     feld likes this.
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     feld (feld@friedcheese.us)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 08:57:16 JST feld

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     • pistolero
     • Jerome
     @i @p @mint @j Joe seemed so cool, what a brilliant guy
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 09:08:33 JST pistolero

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     • Jerome
     @feld @i @j @mint Highly recommend his chapter in Coders at Work.
     feld likes this.
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     feld (feld@friedcheese.us)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 09:10:57 JST feld

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     • pistolero
     • Jerome
     @i @p @mint @j Just went down a rabbit hole and found we could maybe get a significant speedup of file reads and writes by forcing :raw mode... gonna look closer at this because it's such a simple change
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     feld (feld@friedcheese.us)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 09:31:31 JST feld

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     • Jerome
     @i @p @mint @j well making it work in a cluster is pretty straightforward actually, the only real blocker at the moment is Cachex. Everything else seems to be ready. I hope to have a PoC soon.
     
     but also I just did some code grepping and it won't help us; the only place where we open a filehandle and not just do a call to File.write which would be raw is for file uploads, the one place I thought we could use it. Bummer.
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     :blank: (i@declin.eu)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 09:31:32 JST :blank:

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     • pistolero
     • Jerome
     @feld @p @mint @j especially since pleroma is still a hell of a lot of rework from being split apart to work in a cluster
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     :blank: (i@declin.eu)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 10:06:18 JST :blank:

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     • Jerome
     @feld @p @mint @j that's more or less the benefit of the ecosystem than any real work to make the general codebase fit distribution better, but yes, looking forward to getting cachex switched out with nebulex, since that also makes sharing stateful MRF modules easier
     
     can't recall if Mix.install([...]) works outside standalone scripts, would be fun to enable and move some of the added on dependencies off the mix project file too
     feld likes this.
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     feld (feld@friedcheese.us)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 10:08:52 JST feld

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     • Jerome
     @i @p @mint @j rewriting the websocket to use native Phoenix sockets fixed one of the only real blockers I think. I might be misremembering but I thought it wasn't Phoenix-clustering-aware as we were using raw Cowboy for it and that would have been a potential issue
     
     otherwise yeah... oban, phoenix, ecto... it can all handle the clustered deployment just fine.
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     You Get Glee (get@clubcyberia.co)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 15:09:12 JST You Get Glee

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     • kuteboiCoder
     • Jerome
     @p @i @feld @mint @j @KuteboiCoder
     >If you know erlang
     six guys raise their hands up
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     kuteboiCoder (kuteboicoder@subs4social.xyz)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 15:09:13 JST kuteboiCoder

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     @p@fsebugoutzone.org @i@declin.eu @feld@friedcheese.us @j@shitposter.world @mint@ryona.agency
     
     Imagine #learning a whole-ass interpreted #language and #runtime environment just so you can run a #fedi #instance

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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 15:09:13 JST pistolero

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     • Jerome
     @KuteboiCoder @mint @i @feld @j Ah, Elixir's not hard to pick up if you know Erlang. Elixir is definitely not my favorite language but I've never regretted learning a language, JavaScript aside.
     Another Linux Walt Alt likes this.
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      (mint@ryona.agency)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 15:39:37 JST 

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     • pistolero
     • kuteboiCoder
     • Jerome
     @p @i @feld @j @KuteboiCoder >I'd never done Elixir
     You wrote at least three MRFs (primary practical application of the Elixir programming language).
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     kuteboiCoder (kuteboicoder@subs4social.xyz)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 15:39:38 JST kuteboiCoder

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     • Jerome

     @p@fsebugoutzone.org @i@declin.eu @feld@friedcheese.us @j@shitposter.world @mint@ryona.agency
     
     Presumptuously assuming here that you need Erlang and Elixir for #Pleroma and precisely nothing else, cuz I had literally never heard of either of those languages before getting involved in #fedi

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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 15:39:38 JST pistolero

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     • Jerome
     @KuteboiCoder @mint @i @feld @j
     
     > Presumptuously assuming here that you need Erlang and Elixir for #Pleroma and precisely nothing else,
     
     You do need those to hack on Pleroma because Pleroma is written in Elixir, but there are dependencies that are written in C, too. There's probably other stuff in there.
     
     > cuz I had literally never heard of either of those languages before getting involved in #fedi
     
     I did some Erlang at an old job; I'd never done Elixir but I saw people talking about it.
     
     It gets easier to pick up languages the more you pick up anyway. And then you know, like anyone can pick up awk in 30 minutes, most of the shells anyone uses are scripting languages you can pick up gradually.
     
     :bwk: Had a pretty fascinating talk on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg4U4r_AgJU
     ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: likes this.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 16:47:18 JST pistolero

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     • You Get Glee
     @get @KuteboiCoder @feld @i @j @mint Six is a lot of people on this network.
     ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: likes this.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 16:54:12 JST pistolero

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     • Jerome
     @mint @KuteboiCoder @feld @i @j
     
     > You wrote at least three MRFs (primary practical application of the Elixir programming language).
     
     Before joining fedi, I had written zero MRFs.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 16:54:12 JST pistolero

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     @mint @KuteboiCoder @feld @i @j MRFs did not exist when I joined.
     ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: likes this.
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      (mint@ryona.agency)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 22:34:54 JST 

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     • pistolero
     • kuteboiCoder
     • Jerome
     @p @i @feld @j @KuteboiCoder >No networking support so...hard.
     Does not mean impossible. Some ported the whole TCP/IP stack together with drivers to it, others I think made do with the serial ports. aiwnios.com (personal site of one of the three TempleOS devs on fedi) is apparently hosted with a makeshift CGI server running on a custom HolyC runtime.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 22:34:55 JST pistolero

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     @j @KuteboiCoder @feld @i @mint No networking support so...hard.
     
     HolyC is for C64-style stuff anyway, it's for fun and for making the computer do cool things, I don't think there's a JSON parser.
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     Jerome (j@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 22:34:56 JST Jerome

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     @p @i @feld @mint @KuteboiCoder How hard would it be to port Pleroma to HolyC? :terry:
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     :blank: (i@declin.eu)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 23:01:38 JST :blank:

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     @p @feld @mint @j @KuteboiCoder FALSE
      likes this.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 23:01:39 JST pistolero

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     @mint @KuteboiCoder @feld @i @j
     
     > Some ported the whole TCP/IP stack together with drivers to it,
     
     Desecration of the temple.
     10f7a163d700f7d0439095bd60bc006b7d1c8a8741a1a64b29c848d36e0b9369.jpg
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     fluffy@baraag.net's status on Tuesday, 29-Oct-2024 00:00:28 JST fluffy

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     @p @i @feld @mint @j @KuteboiCoder
     I think there should be a device, open sourced and cheap/easy to construct, maybe fully solderless, that is purpose made to run TempleOS.

     Rest in peace Terry, but I think he would have wanted this to be a tool in everybody's kit, a ubiquitous and special purpose toy not much unlike car or gun hobbyists.

     Like Doom, I'm sure TempleOS can run on just about anything, modern CPUs can practically hold the whole thing in L3 cache.

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      (mint@ryona.agency)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Oct-2024 00:00:28 JST 

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     • Jerome
     @fluffy @p @i @feld @j @KuteboiCoder Except I believe there's no user-facing instructions to put and retrieve something specific from the cache, at least on x86.
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     :ihavenomouth: (inginsub@clubcyberia.co)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Oct-2024 00:04:30 JST :ihavenomouth:

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     • Jerome
     @mint @fluffy @i @feld @p @j @KuteboiCoder there's prefetch, but you're more likely to lose performance by using it. (also, L3 may be enough to run the bare system but not if you want to do anything fun, save for 1k demos and such)
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     fluffy@baraag.net's status on Tuesday, 29-Oct-2024 00:40:06 JST fluffy

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     • kuteboiCoder
     • Jerome

     @mint @i @feld @p @j @KuteboiCoder
     That makes sense, really.

     If fragmentation is sin, then random reads/writes are to be avoided.

     The challenge with this OS is that it forces a new paradigm for how things are used: imagine not the internet, but some other way in which computers connect and communicate, why they would need to, and how that would happen without the complex and somewhat pointless ideas of modern internet.

     Protocols aren't golden hammers, but they try to be.

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   • Embed this notice
     :blank: (i@declin.eu)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Oct-2024 00:40:37 JST :blank:

     in reply to

     • 
     • fluffy
     • pistolero
     • kuteboiCoder
     • Jerome
     @fluffy @p @feld @mint @j @KuteboiCoder you can run it on any operating system without a virtual machine with https://github.com/nrootconauto/Aiwnios, so any SBC in kiosk mode with a 640x480 VGA display would work for that
     
     or you can take the devterms (640+640)x480 screen, and run something else side by side
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      (mint@ryona.agency)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Oct-2024 00:49:31 JST 

     in reply to

     • fluffy
     • :blank:
     • pistolero
     • kuteboiCoder
     • Jerome
     @fluffy @i @feld @p @j @KuteboiCoder Fidonet died with the spread of broadband as all the restrictions that made it what it was became irrelevant. I guess you could make do with something like LoRaWAN, e.g. https://markqvist.github.io/Reticulum/manual/, but the issue of gaining a critical mass of users remains.