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   nicholas_saunders (nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 14-Jul-2024 15:20:54 JST nicholas_saunders

   • Church of Jeff
   • dogpile

   @dogpile @jeffowski it has enormous potential to democratize education through #onelaptoperchild and similar initiatives.

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     Church of Jeff (jeffowski@mastodon.world)'s status on Sunday, 14-Jul-2024 15:20:53 JST Church of Jeff

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     • dogpile

     @nicholas_saunders @dogpile -- You know this is not actually "Artificial Intelligence," right?
     It can't think. That's why this is so fucking sad. It is not able to think, but to pick statistically probable words in a language model.
     All of the data creates a box and the machine learning can only recreate and predict based on what it was trained on.
     What that means is that everything created by "AI" (as you call it), is a derivative of the training material.

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     Church of Jeff (jeffowski@mastodon.world)'s status on Sunday, 14-Jul-2024 15:24:56 JST Church of Jeff

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     @nicholas_saunders @dogpile - So what "AI" has actually done is to exploit the labor of thousands of people (you included) to remove those same people from any profit or benefit of their work, but this work can only be within the confines of the data it harvested.
     Again, everything is a derivative of the original data sample, and it can only recreate MORE of the same, backfilling the data even more from this derivative reconstruction.
     Think of these implications.
     There are no new ideas

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     Church of Jeff (jeffowski@mastodon.world)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jul-2024 04:19:55 JST Church of Jeff

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     • Ariaflame
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     @nicholas_saunders @ariaflame @dogpile -- Funny that you simply call it "sampling" when artist/musicians have been sued and lost half of the royalties on a song for sampling without credit.
     Sisco's Thong Song comes to mind.
     Keep telling me how it ain't stealing...

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     nicholas_saunders (nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jul-2024 04:19:56 JST nicholas_saunders

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     @ariaflame @dogpile @jeffowski it's sampling to the nth. Not a musician, but caught a YouTube clip about it.

     WRT the chatbot, it's groundbreaking. As a tool.

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     nicholas_saunders (nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jul-2024 04:19:57 JST nicholas_saunders

     in reply to

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     @ariaflame @dogpile @jeffowski

     I don't use #stackoverflow the way that I used to, but they're employing #ai on a massive scale. Why? Because everything's already been fed into the monster anyhow. And more and more responses, etc, will at least get filtered through it.

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     Ariaflame (ariaflame@masto.ai)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jul-2024 04:19:57 JST Ariaflame

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     • Church of Jeff
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     @nicholas_saunders @dogpile @jeffowski Yes, they're basically stealing other people's work and charging for it. Or if they aren't yet, they will be soon.

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     nicholas_saunders (nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jul-2024 04:19:58 JST nicholas_saunders

     in reply to

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     @ariaflame @dogpile @jeffowski and, taken to a logical extreme, maybe the death of musical composition (for example).

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     nicholas_saunders (nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jul-2024 04:19:59 JST nicholas_saunders

     in reply to

     • Church of Jeff
     • Ariaflame
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     @ariaflame @dogpile @jeffowski oh, well I'm not pushing it on you. To start with, it's environmentally unsound.

     I would only say that the chatbot aspect is groundbreaking. It's arguably going to change graphic art, and, maybe more significantly, music.

     Its ability to churn our code is impressive, if of limited utility.

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     Ariaflame (ariaflame@masto.ai)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jul-2024 04:19:59 JST Ariaflame

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     @nicholas_saunders @dogpile @jeffowski Those are three different machine learning models though. And sure it's going to make being an artist even more of a poverty ridden job.

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     Ariaflame (ariaflame@masto.ai)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jul-2024 04:20:00 JST Ariaflame

     in reply to

     • Church of Jeff
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     @nicholas_saunders @dogpile @jeffowski That people think it does things that it doesn't. That some students think it's a search engine. That it has very very limited uses and yet everyone is pushing it on me when I don't need it or want it.

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     Ariaflame (ariaflame@masto.ai)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jul-2024 04:20:01 JST Ariaflame

     in reply to

     • Church of Jeff
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     @nicholas_saunders @dogpile @jeffowski Tell that to my students that use it to do their assignments for them. Badly.

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     nicholas_saunders (nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jul-2024 04:20:01 JST nicholas_saunders

     in reply to

     • Church of Jeff
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     @ariaflame @dogpile @jeffowski then what is your complaint? That it doesn't cheat well enough?

     I don't understand your objection.

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     Ariaflame (ariaflame@masto.ai)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jul-2024 04:20:02 JST Ariaflame

     in reply to

     • Church of Jeff
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     @nicholas_saunders @dogpile @jeffowski Is that the exams that they found out that were fudged?
     Tell me, do you check that the summary it gives you is correct?

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     nicholas_saunders (nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jul-2024 04:20:02 JST nicholas_saunders

     in reply to

     • Church of Jeff
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     @ariaflame @dogpile @jeffowski I'll be glad to test it with you. What subject do you want? You have access to it, anyhow.

     But even when you find hallucinations, so what? It's not reference material.

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     Ariaflame (ariaflame@masto.ai)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jul-2024 04:20:03 JST Ariaflame

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     @nicholas_saunders @dogpile @jeffowski From what I've heard not great code. What data does it collate?

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     nicholas_saunders (nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jul-2024 04:20:03 JST nicholas_saunders

     in reply to

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     @ariaflame @dogpile @jeffowski

     I'm mainly using copilot as a frontend to Wikipedia, so can only speak to that.

     But the mere fact that it's able to pass exams cannot be overlooked.

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     nicholas_saunders (nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jul-2024 04:20:04 JST nicholas_saunders

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     @ariaflame @dogpile @jeffowski

     It's rather remarkable, but it's also being used to write code. It collates data well, and acts as a frontend for Wikipedia.

     It has utility. Of course it's hyped up. And?

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     nicholas_saunders (nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jul-2024 04:20:05 JST nicholas_saunders

     in reply to

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     @ariaflame @dogpile @jeffowski bit of a strawman there, isn't it? It's just a tool like any other. As you yourself said, it's not capable of thought. Writing some boilerplate? Great.

     Not understanding the hate.

     Because it's an advancement. Terribly inefficient and overblown, but with great potential and some present utility.

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     Ariaflame (ariaflame@masto.ai)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jul-2024 04:20:05 JST Ariaflame

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     @nicholas_saunders @dogpile @jeffowski So it's good at doing bad writing? How is that useful?

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     nicholas_saunders (nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jul-2024 04:20:06 JST nicholas_saunders

     in reply to

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     @ariaflame @dogpile @jeffowski I said potential, Aria. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

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     Ariaflame (ariaflame@masto.ai)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jul-2024 04:20:06 JST Ariaflame

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     • Church of Jeff
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     @nicholas_saunders @dogpile @jeffowski LLMs at the moment don't give accurate information. But sure, tell me that I can give up my job and give it over to machines which do not give accurate information.

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     Ariaflame (ariaflame@masto.ai)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jul-2024 04:20:07 JST Ariaflame

     in reply to

     • Church of Jeff
     • dogpile

     @nicholas_saunders @dogpile @jeffowski By teaching everyone things that aren't correct.

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     Atz (atzanteol@techhub.social)'s status on Wednesday, 17-Jul-2024 04:14:29 JST Atz

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     • Church of Jeff
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     @ariaflame @nicholas_saunders @dogpile @jeffowski
     The code is good enough - and it's very good at summarizing bad documentation.

     It doesn't need to be perfect to be useful else humans would also be useless.

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     Church of Jeff (jeffowski@mastodon.world)'s status on Wednesday, 17-Jul-2024 04:14:29 JST Church of Jeff

     in reply to

     • Ariaflame
     • Atz
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     @atzanteol @ariaflame @nicholas_saunders @dogpile - I have a very good friend that is an incredibly smart guy but was deprived of a quality education. His speech is crude and he has trouble making comprehensible sentences for his social media posts. AI as an assistant to an actual user is different than simply outsourcing entire jobs away from actual artists. I don’t believe AI is dangerous in the sense that it can destroy humans CONT -> #ai

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     Church of Jeff (jeffowski@mastodon.world)'s status on Wednesday, 17-Jul-2024 04:20:09 JST Church of Jeff

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     @atzanteol @ariaflame @nicholas_saunders @dogpile — the “Terminator/Skynet” future is not what I’m afraid of. #AI as assistants paired with a human can do superhuman things and I think it may even be the next step in our evolution. With that said, the machine learning models used to create papers/articles and to create images and video are not paired with a human. As such, the results can only be within the data set it has been fed-> CONT #ai

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     Church of Jeff (jeffowski@mastodon.world)'s status on Wednesday, 17-Jul-2024 04:26:48 JST Church of Jeff

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     @atzanteol @ariaflame @nicholas_saunders @dogpile - this sort of work does not expand the dataset at all. It is all derivative. Outside of the ethics of using the art of other artists to train your machine learning model, it cannot deviate and create something completely new. We have ethical use of #AI as a tool to enhance a human and and the inethical use of #generativeAI creating derivative works in styles stolen from real human artists.

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     Church of Jeff (jeffowski@mastodon.world)'s status on Wednesday, 17-Jul-2024 04:47:33 JST Church of Jeff

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     • Atz
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     @atzanteol @ariaflame @nicholas_saunders @dogpile - an artist using #AI to create more art trained on the artist’s past work for the benefit of the artist is something I can get behind. Using #GenerativeAI to circumvent the artist using a service trained on their art and the art of thousands of other artists for the benefit of a tech company and the end customer (again, not the artist(s)) is inethical and does not expand the dataset.

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     Atz (atzanteol@techhub.social)'s status on Wednesday, 17-Jul-2024 08:59:31 JST Atz

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     @nicholas_saunders @jeffowski @ariaflame @dogpile

     Remember when everyone stopped learning math because of calculators?

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     Church of Jeff (jeffowski@mastodon.world)'s status on Wednesday, 17-Jul-2024 08:59:31 JST Church of Jeff

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     @atzanteol @nicholas_saunders @ariaflame @dogpile -- I was the generation that grew up with calculators for the first time. I have an old National brand calculator from Japan, 1980 that I still have and it still works perfectly.
     This was a tool that still needed you to understand math theory. You have to know how the numbers all work to make the calculator useful.
     You simply had a super accurate "calculator" and that was all it did. Still a completely useless tool without understanding math.

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     nicholas_saunders (nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 17-Jul-2024 08:59:32 JST nicholas_saunders

     in reply to

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     @jeffowski @atzanteol @ariaflame @dogpile

     Fuck, Jeff, tell us what you really think.

     But, yeh, hunna percent, as they say now. Music, I think, is the most immediately exploitable. The long term effect being that composing becomes a lost art.

     But that risk is across the board. Why learn to draw when ai will do that for you?

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     Church of Jeff (jeffowski@mastodon.world)'s status on Wednesday, 17-Jul-2024 09:03:02 JST Church of Jeff

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     • Peter Butler
     • Ariaflame
     • Atz
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     @nicholas_saunders @peterbutler @atzanteol @ariaflame @dogpile - It cannot get out of the box the data set makes. Anything the AI can generate will be within that box (data outline). Humans still need to create new things (data) that is outside of the current data set, to expand what AI can do. The real issue, and the root of the concise Original Post above, is that as soon as an artist makes something new, it can instantly be stolen, even before the artist can make a penny off of it.

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     nicholas_saunders (nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 17-Jul-2024 09:03:03 JST nicholas_saunders

     in reply to

     • Peter Butler
     • Church of Jeff
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     @peterbutler @atzanteol @jeffowski @ariaflame @dogpile

     Yeah, I think this is different in degree and quality. Because it plagiarizes so well it can only and inexorably lead to much of our culture becoming a lost art.

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     Peter Butler (peterbutler@mas.to)'s status on Wednesday, 17-Jul-2024 09:03:04 JST Peter Butler

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     @atzanteol @nicholas_saunders @jeffowski @ariaflame @dogpile They might not have stopped “learning math” but they definitely declined in their ability to do basic arithmetic calculations

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     Church of Jeff (jeffowski@mastodon.world)'s status on Wednesday, 17-Jul-2024 09:09:49 JST Church of Jeff

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     @nicholas_saunders @peterbutler @atzanteol @ariaflame @dogpile -- If that is the #AI paradigm we are working with, then there is absolutely NO incentive to create new art. This will lead to artistic and cultural stagnation, IMO.
     Unless we make special art specifically forbidden from being photographed or digitized in any way that is profitable, #GenerativeAI can instantly steal it and it is instantly not special.
     This has special implications.
     ->CONT

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     Church of Jeff (jeffowski@mastodon.world)'s status on Wednesday, 17-Jul-2024 09:14:57 JST Church of Jeff

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     @nicholas_saunders @peterbutler @atzanteol @ariaflame @dogpile - This special art would be limited to very specific artists for a very specific clientele that have the power and money to literally restrict the ACCESS to the art to keep it special. We will soon see a world were any new art will strictly be for the ultra-wealthy.
     We will move back to 17th century levels of wealth inequality and masses of impoverished poor that return to serfdom to fill their bellies. #AI #GenerativeAI

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     Atz (atzanteol@techhub.social)'s status on Wednesday, 17-Jul-2024 14:32:05 JST Atz

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     @ariaflame @nicholas_saunders @dogpile @jeffowski

     No... "Bad documentation" isn't wrong, it's difficult to understand - or incomplete. It's then talked about on forums all over the internet.

     LLMs can combine all that together and tell you how to use that function you're looking at in the docs without needing to post in a forum, being given wrong advice by 4 different people, being told to re-do everything by that one guy who hates everything, etc. You just get an answer that's "probably helpful" really quickly. And if it's not then you fall back on the standard forums and all the shit you deal with there.

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     Church of Jeff (jeffowski@mastodon.world)'s status on Wednesday, 17-Jul-2024 14:32:05 JST Church of Jeff

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     @atzanteol @ariaflame @nicholas_saunders @dogpile — there’s no validation on whether it is kicking out bad information until you try it…
     Good luck with that.

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     Ariaflame (ariaflame@masto.ai)'s status on Wednesday, 17-Jul-2024 14:32:06 JST Ariaflame

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     @atzanteol @nicholas_saunders @dogpile @jeffowski So the summary would also be bad, because GIGO.

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     Church of Jeff (jeffowski@mastodon.world)'s status on Wednesday, 17-Jul-2024 14:39:17 JST Church of Jeff

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     • Peter Butler
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     • Atz
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     @atzanteol @nicholas_saunders @peterbutler @ariaflame @dogpile — any economic incentive for the given art will be squashed.
     People will always create but it will be sacrificed to the corporate gods’ coffers if it gets to the internet.
     I have many pieces of art that I’ve created and I have specifically never photographed or digitized it in any way and it is not on any public display.
     Is this art monetarily more valuable? -> CONT

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     Atz (atzanteol@techhub.social)'s status on Wednesday, 17-Jul-2024 14:39:18 JST Atz

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     @nicholas_saunders @peterbutler @jeffowski @ariaflame @dogpile

     You think humans will stop being creative?

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     Church of Jeff (jeffowski@mastodon.world)'s status on Wednesday, 17-Jul-2024 14:43:59 JST Church of Jeff

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     @atzanteol @nicholas_saunders @peterbutler @ariaflame @dogpile — knowing the artists I do, there is a spiteful streak amongst them and many are doing what I am doing, and that is not creating new art. They would rather NOT make new art if it will simply be stolen.
     Any art that IS created will be entirely for art’s sake and never make it to the machine learning models. It will be trapped in a private collection hidden from the public.

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     Church of Jeff (jeffowski@mastodon.world)'s status on Wednesday, 17-Jul-2024 14:46:21 JST Church of Jeff

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     @atzanteol @nicholas_saunders @peterbutler @ariaflame @dogpile — what is true is that the #generativeAI needs artists to become better as these companies discourage and steal from these same people they desperately need.