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@condret This works as long as you don't go "anyone I don't like is a nazi" which in the long run doesn't work.
- Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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@condret @mangeurdenuage Also, if you don't see the danger in propaganda like this to everyone involved in it, you're frankly a lost cause. No better than IDF soldiers shooting babies in the head because they might grow up to be Hamas someday.
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shout out to spw for being able to discuss this stuff without sperging the hell out into moderator gatekeeping. far more chill instance than poast or nice crew
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@condret @mangeurdenuage If you're going to advocate for the dehumanization of a class of people, you could at least provide a hard definition rather than "whatever I feel like." That just makes you even more of a tyrant than simply advocating for dehumanization of people does.
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@mangeurdenuage so you think the definition of a nazi needs to be narrow?
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@night @condret @mangeurdenuage Free speech means you approach things like this with words and not jannyhammers
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@condret @mangeurdenuage If you want to deprive someone of liberties then probably there should be good evidence that the person believes others shouldn't have that liberty first. However generally I believe someone has the right to believe whatever they want but they can't act on it. which I guess implies I don't want them in public office.
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@sun @mangeurdenuage have you ever read a translation of Goebbels speech, where he makes fun of stupid democrats of the Weimar Republic granting them freedom of speech, which allowed the nazis to publicly spread their propaganda? I forgot which speech it was. i think we should learn a lessom from that
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@condret @mangeurdenuage sure I just think it's easier with actual nazis or communists who are open they don't agree with free speech.
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@night @condret @mrsaturday
>without sperging the hell out into moderator gatekeeping
These can also be the effects of demoralization. You can't advance into anything positive if you're not willing to be open to a courteous conversation.
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That's the thing, some of these guys their actual job is demoralization. They don't want to find common ground they just want to bully off anyone criticizing the virtue signal. You can spot that shit a mile away, it's intentionally uncooperative. Performative flexing and no substance.
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@night @condret @mangeurdenuage @mrsaturday latest iphone, punch nazis send tweet
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what does antifa need money for? I guess being a gay communist ain't cheap is it
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@condret @mangeurdenuage @night Higher-ups within your organization are the ones that see it, not you
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@night @condret @mangeurdenuage German antifa receives government funding, so it's more than plausible, especially with the European tendency to outlaw any challenges to the status quo
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@mrsaturday @night @mangeurdenuage "German antifa recieves government funding" - oh, i wish that was true. i still haven't been paid for any antifa protest, i've attended to.
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@night @condret @mrsaturday It's not necessarily their job, it can be unconscious, and most of the time the reasons are good intended, but you don't achieve good results with passive violence.
It's also good to stop speaking about such issue and ignore it and have fun on your side too, maybe they'll learn to do the same.
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when the value point they're guarding like it was their identity is perfectly aligned with regime cringe and they won't hear any criticism for it... natural to assume they work for the regime don't you think? It's possible they gatekeep for free, but unlikely. People without that conflict of interest for their payroll aren't usually so dogmatic.
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@Hyolobrika @mangeurdenuage @sun well the nazis did take power
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@condret @Hyolobrika @mangeurdenuage I don't think simple rules prevent nazis because they took power beccause of a deterioration of the legitimacy and effectiveness of the state first. So I guess if you don't want nazis then politicians need to do their jobs and mind the store.
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@condret @mangeurdenuage @sun but if they're not allowed to take power, why does it matter?
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@condret @Hyolobrika @mangeurdenuage this is exactly why the USA is vulnerable to fascism and why banning them doesn't work, germany banned them too
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@sun @condret @mangeurdenuage @Hyolobrika the weimar republic was also a failed state and the nazis directly proffered solutions to a mass of angry workers.
failed states unfortunately can't fathom why someone would become an extremist and just relies on more authoritarianism and censorship, even though authoritarian and censorious ignoring of the public is why the failed state is about to get taken behind the woodshed.
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@icedquinn @condret @mangeurdenuage @Hyolobrika I have definitely noticed in recent history that really strong norms can flip very quickly when legitimacy is weakened. because the truth is that things we think are unthinkable are actually pretty arbitrary when you compare to things we currently rationalize like relying on foreign slave labor to make our junk.
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@sun @condret @mangeurdenuage @Hyolobrika oh yeah once you lose trust in the crown the whole empire goes to the spiders.
'tis why i'm such a pain in the ass about doing things to preserve that, even though its pointless as Tiberius proved :/
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@icedquinn @condret @mangeurdenuage @Hyolobrika things aren't actually materially that bad in the USA right this second but I'm certain we're past the tipping point.
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@sun @condret @mangeurdenuage @Hyolobrika it may or may not be salvageable but not by me. and i don't believe anyone in power or currently pending for power actually gives a damn.
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@icedquinn @condret @mangeurdenuage @Hyolobrika yeah I am bothered a lot by it and haven't internalized yet that caring about it beyond protecting myself is pointless and harmful
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@sun @condret @mangeurdenuage @Hyolobrika it requires hard problems like keeping the internet free (or, well, making it free again) and resolving issues like a billionaire buying all the farmland to make carbon sinks and municipalities blocking nitrogen shipments.
the public sees sleepy isreal and orange isreal as some public slapfight, and doesn't really notice much about the food infrastructure is currently failing by design.
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@Hyolobrika @condret @mangeurdenuage it was banned after the beer hall putsch
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@sun @condret @mangeurdenuage did Germany ban the Nazis? I thought the banning came later, after the damage was done and they lost the war
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@Hyolobrika @condret @mangeurdenuage I don't understand it in great detail except that it could only have happened because people were fed up with the current government and communist violence.
it's not even clear to me that you can ban parties that promote reductions of freedom because like in the USA there are politicians that would for example take away the right to own guns or radically reduce our conception of freedom of speech, should they be procedurally barred from office, where do you draw the line unless it's literally "I would ban further elections" which I am not even sure the nazi party said that, they just did it when they amassed enough power.
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@sun @condret @mangeurdenuage How did they come to power after that? I should probably read the history.
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@Hyolobrika @condret @mangeurdenuage I might be overthinking this and it would make sense banning a party that has a history like the nazi party. but if I try to apply this to current events in the USA it's just not applicable in my mind. Trump is very bad in a lot of ways but he's just not hitler, people that say 2024 will be the last year of american elections is desperate bleating of a major political party running out of paths to winning.
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@icedquinn @mangeurdenuage @sun @Hyolobrika could you elaborate the details of the "failed state" part further
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@condret @mangeurdenuage @sun @Hyolobrika high taxes that were just shipped overseas or to the rich (war bond owners)--basically reverse robin hood on a major scale--left it relatively bankrupt. this is pretty normal history book stuff.
the reparations demands were so bad the USA refused to join the league of nations and GB reluctantly did but waived any claims to them. Whatever the rest of europe didn't seize was being milked dry to pay off bond holders (which amounted to a superminority of Germans), which was something the original national socialists had proclaimed they were going to abolish.
This is the same kind of scheme europe ran in the colonial days too. Its just that now it was being done to other europeans.
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@Hyolobrika @condret @mangeurdenuage @sun the fascists are already in power.
the fbi running facebook to make the president look good is fascism.
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@icedquinn @condret @mangeurdenuage @sun I don't think authoritarianism and censorship is the concern of people who would try to bring fascists or MLs into power
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