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according to Azov supporters the dissident right is just "Kremlin shills pretending to be nationalists."
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@branman65 @maija @Terry >He doesn't think Orthodox Christians are Christian
I was going to say something mean, but I was literally looking at my icon of Christ as I wrote this. Care to explain the point you think it went off the rails?
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@maija @Terry russia is only half Christian (that's only if you count the Russian Orthodox Church as being Christian)
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@Terry yeah, i'd agree. the real right is mostly dead or tiny at this rate, the mainstream dissident right is all shills and psyops and glowies. russia invests heavily in them because they wanna put up that fake trad imageto the world, this christian morality they overwhelmingly lack. hiding their subhumanity.
thats not to say one cant side with russia but those figures are largely shills and those retarded enough to take what they say at face value because its a modern counter culture
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@maija @Terry ROC meatriding Stalin is proof at least their leaders are apostates
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@branman65 @maija @Terry That's far more complicated than Westerners, including most dissidents, know about. Bishops were moved or replaced by lackeys. One could make an argument in defense of this because it allowed the churches to remain in existence rather than be decommissioned and looted, and the faithful still practiced even if in secret. Communists broke up the church communities in USSR territories just like they did to the ethnic churches in America via strategic "housing projects" (see: The Slaughter of Cities by Dr. E. Michael Jones). They would sometimes force people to move in scattered ways to deliberately kill an out of compliance church.
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@branman65 @maija @Terry EO
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@BowsacNoodle @maija @Terry do you want my criticism of Eastern Orthodoxy in general or ROC in particular
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@Xenophon @BowsacNoodle @Terry @branman65 @maija Christ is the Icon of the Father, as we are an Icon of Christ.
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>Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image
:HazeSmug:
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@Xenophon @Terry @branman65 @maija I don't worship the icon in a superstitious way. It is not a mini-god nor mini-God. I do not make offerings to the icon nor expect the icon to do anything for me; it is not a transactional relationship. The icon reminds me of Christ which is particularly helpful when I'm considering something I shouldn't.
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@branman65 @maija @Terry As I stated above, they really had no choice because those who didn't lost their spot and were replaced by lackeys. The two ways to look at this issue as I see it:
>The bishops should have stood their ground because it was the morally correct thing to do and God does not want us to be cowards nor make peace with evil.
>The bishops held their tongue for the benefit of their churches and to protect the priests and leity within their care. Had every man with honest conviction spoke out, no one but dishonest non-believers would be left to lead and would potentially mislead millions.
That's all assuming that everything about Stalin is bad. He was at least Nationalistic in his views rather than attempting full erasure of nonrussian cultures, right?
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@BowsacNoodle @maija @Terry yeah but when your Church leaders are collaborating with and glorifying your persecutors it's not good.
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@BowsacNoodle @maija @Terry give me a moment this is gonna be an effortpost
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@doctorsex @Terry @branman65 @maija Am I thinking of the wrong guy? I thought Stalin was the one who stopped the force erase of all the ethnic subgroups?
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>rather than attempting full erasure of nonrussian cultures, right?
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh
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@BowsacNoodle @Terry @branman65 > He was at least Nationalistic in his views rather than attempting full erasure of nonrussian cultures, right?
he was russian supremacist and did a lot of genocides. would be fine if it was just russia and not soviet occupied states. so yes he did attempt full erasure of nonrussian cultures. and also while being kinda nationalistic, nationalist views were according to the party line very bad and youd still get sent to gulag for having them
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@maija @Terry @branman65 Perhaps I'm being foolish and confusing my USSR leaders. If so, my post needs rewritten. I know Stalin did census revisions, and I thought it was him who undid the specific blanketing of ethnic groups as RUSSIAN rather than more accurate descriptions of various ethnic groups.
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I'm not an expert on the timeline of who did what in the soviet union but soviet culture was it's own thingand that's what was uniformly imposed across the whole thing. Forced erasure of the groups themselves? I dunno, maybe, possibly. Definitely not the culture though
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@doctorsex @Terry @branman65 @maija I have been trying to find the thing I read about this a few years back. I recall Ruthenians were "erased" by being forced to register as Russian for census purposes. Attempts to homogenize things a bit and maybe shore up the number of "RUSSIAN" ethnics, plus the weird history of Ruthenia as a border zone in between like 4 countries in flux.
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@BowsacNoodle @Terry @branman65 idk if he did that or not but he did target and try to replace the nonrussian groups yeah. especially nonslavic
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>something something the gates of hell shall not prevail
Maybe you could argue this is what that looked like but it seems very "out of character" for God to have the church make a compromise like that, especially considering the periods of time where the church has had to operate completely underground in some places
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@doctorsex @Terry @branman65 @maija That's a fair question for sure. I do know that the churches which didn't cooperate, particularly the Ruthenians, were scattered and many were gulaged or worse. It was a crazy time of real persecution.
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@branman65 @maija @Terry >soteriology
East v West and the different ways of thinking. It could be biological, cultural, or something else. You may find that answer lacking, but it shouldn't be so far fetched in this sphere with the awareness of HBD.
>Theosis
Sanctification is a common word in evangelical Christianity and it's a very similar concept. You are not saved by your Sanctification or Theosis, but they are descriptions of transformation of the soul through continual faith in Christ. One does not "earn" this, but you know that when you devote more of your time and attention to God that there is a noticable difference in how you begin to live and think. It is an iterative process of transformation of the soul, like refinement, where the flaws you later discover were invisible until others were removed.
>lack of clarity
I do agree, but the East Vs West distinction is the why IMO. It's not that it's super esoteric, but it's also not so plainly stated as Western theology. People call the East/West divide the two lungs of the Church with The East being the spiritual or mystical lung and The West being intellectual or rational lung. Not that their isn't plenty of overlap, but the general vibe.
>patristic sources
Most Westerners rely on that even when we don't realize it. We just don't care about the who, unlike the East. But that's all historical contextualization is, and it's hardly different just from a spiritual direction POV.
>vain repetition
The Jesus prayer ("Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner") and other forms of hesychasm are repetitious prayers, but it's not for vanity. It's as much about the prayer itself as it is about adopting the mindset of constantly thinking about Christ and praying without ceasing (1 Thessalonians 5:17)
Sleep well brother.
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@BowsacNoodle @maija @Terry before I tackle EO I will give a brief rundown on why ROC is bad in particular. ROC has a Stalinist problem, to put it bluntly. the church participates in the great patriotic war propaganda song and dance. Regarding EO, I find it's soteriology to be dangerous at best and soul destroying at worst, Scripture clearly teaches not only a legal framework of salvation but teaches faith alone and not faith plus works(spiritual usury) or a process of "Theosis" as a means of salvation. It seems a lack of clarity also is a major issue in EO theology in general. An insistence on patristic sources being anything more than what they are (opinions of the dead) let alone equal to Word of God is also a negative aspect. weird hellenic heathen metaphysics being popular (Plato is incompatible with Christianity btw and Plontius is worse). vain repetition being a popular monastic practice. the Icon stuff is weird and if one takes it too far it can lead to idolatry. that's a run down of the more important problems I have with EO I can think of at the moment. I gotta go to bed goodnight
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Yeah and the early roman christians were literally tortured to death for sport. They didn't make room for nero among people to look to for salvation though.
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@BowsacNoodle @maija @Terry so the ROC apostasized to avoid persecution
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@branman65 @maija @Terry I'm not making that accusation.
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@BowsacNoodle @doctorsex @Terry @maija Stalin did the fucking holodomor
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@branman65 @doctorsex @Terry @maija Culture is what I was referring to, and I still don't know if it was Stalin or not. I thought it was because he redesigned the census.
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@branman65 @KnifeEar @maija @Terry I just read James 2, and I definitely don't agree. The "works" in question are directly referring to violating the second greatest commandment with the previous verses setting the table for this and talking about how breaking one law but not another still makes you a lawbreaker (unworthy). I cannot stress enough my request to read the words I'm typing and not fill in the blanks with what you may assume I imply.
We are saved by grace through faith in Christ. We are told to show love to others and given a myriad of examples by Christ including things such as Matthew 25 31-46
>40 And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’
>45 Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’
It's important enough that it's mentioned twice in a row, with the second time saying those He sends away will go to hell. Does that mean salvation is dependent on works? I don't read that passage and come away with that. I read that as Christ telling those who wish to know and follow Him to do these things He commands. None of those things can earn salvation; it was already earned in blood through His sacrifice and conquering of death itself.
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@KnifeEar @BowsacNoodle @maija @Terry How dare you spit in the face of Christ
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@KnifeEar @BowsacNoodle @maija @Terry that little James passage that anti-Christs like to repeat refers to evidence of one's salvation to one's peers (as it has been explained to me). the only possible way you could get that faith plus works doctrine that's straight from lucifer is if you pit Paul and James against each other. faith plus works calls God a usurer and implies Christ died for nothing. I hope you accept the true Gospel one day
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@branman65 @BowsacNoodle @maija @Terry >Scripture clearly teaches not only a legal framework of salvation but teaches faith alone and not faith plus works(spiritual usury)
Perhaps this would help:
1 Corinthians 13:2 "And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."
James 2:14-17 "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."
>ROC has a Stalinist problem, to put it bluntly.
In my opinion, ROC has a positive Christianity problem with bishops sympathetic (or some arguably coereced or bribed) through "tsar before pope". The tsar being the secular Federation government which selected apologies of the USSR to order to give a root of history for government dogma to motivate the masses. (Aka we can do anything because we beat the Nazis, ignore the bad parts though)
The government has a strong hand in ROC affairs.
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I read in the context of "knowing them by their fruits". Someone who really truly does believe is just naturally going to wind up doing good things in some way or another, and if someone says they believe but what they do doesn't suggest that, their faith is questionable. We aren't saved because of what *we do*, rather we do what we do *because we are saved*.
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@doctorsex @Terry @KnifeEar @branman65 @maija >We aren't saved because of what *we do*, rather we do what we do *because we are saved*.
Indeed. I do think it's helpful to remind people of the need to bare fruit of their faith, although some will get mad at that idea. When I make an effort to do things for others, I stop focusing on myself so much and find my spiritual life improves.
Terry
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