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1. Embed this notice
   Eugen Rochko (gargron@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 05-Jun-2024 20:59:03 JST Eugen Rochko

   • かき@GNUsocialJP

   I should be able to follow #Cara users from my Mastodon account. You can't convince me to make yet another account in a yet another silo, but I'd love to see and share more art in my home feed. Anyone have a connection to their team? Would love to chat about the #fediverse.

   • Embed this notice
     Chee Aun 🤔 (cheeaun@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 05-Jun-2024 21:35:23 JST Chee Aun 🤔

     in reply to

     @Gargron from what I researched, their discord is probably the best place to contact them now.

   • Embed this notice
     Dave Winer ☕️ (davew@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 05-Jun-2024 22:58:19 JST Dave Winer ☕️

     in reply to

     @Gargron

     you sound like me -- wrt RSS. 😀

     they do have a feed btw, so you could meet them half-way by supporting RSS as an equal with ActivityPub.

     there's lots of good stuff out there that's available in feeds that hasn't made it to AP yet.

     btw, i am able to follow you in my feed reader, bc as you know Masto supports outbound RSS.

     maybe you and i should work together to bring the two worlds together?

   • Embed this notice
     Eugen Rochko (gargron@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 05-Jun-2024 23:01:02 JST Eugen Rochko

     in reply to

     • かき@GNUsocialJP
     • Dave Winer ☕️

     @davew RSS is not the same. I want them to know that I follow them, and to see my replies, and when I boost their art to my followers.

   • Embed this notice
     Dave Winer ☕️ (davew@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 05-Jun-2024 23:15:38 JST Dave Winer ☕️

     in reply to

     @Gargron -- makes sense.

     but -- if you can have some of what you want now to get started, why not.

     that's always how i approach these things. that's why i was so happy to see that you all supported outbound RSS.

     but i want more connections between the two world. we're not done building.

     and thanks for taking the time to respond.

   • Embed this notice
     Eugen Rochko (gargron@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 05-Jun-2024 23:22:15 JST Eugen Rochko

     in reply to

     • かき@GNUsocialJP
     • Ben Werdmuller
     • Kevin Marks
     • Dave Winer ☕️

     @KevinMarks @davew @ben I read that yesterday. From my reading of the Cara page, it is not making any promises about protecting art from ingestion into LLM datasets besides offering access to the Glaze tool. It's simply a place where generative AI slop is not allowed to be uploaded. In that sense I see no show stoppers for federation today. Artists want to be seen, makes no sense to self-isolate.

   • Embed this notice
     Kevin Marks (kevinmarks@xoxo.zone)'s status on Wednesday, 05-Jun-2024 23:22:17 JST Kevin Marks

     in reply to

     • Dave Winer ☕️
     • Ben Werdmuller

     @Gargron @davew @werd.io wrote about the problems yesterday
     https://werd.io/2024/protecting-artists-on-the-fediverse

   • Embed this notice
     Eugen Rochko (gargron@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 05-Jun-2024 23:35:18 JST Eugen Rochko

     in reply to

     • かき@GNUsocialJP
     • Ben Werdmuller
     • Kevin Marks
     • Dave Winer ☕️

     @ben @KevinMarks @davew I remember we already talked about this yesterday. I think discussions about LLM training should be happening at the legal level, not technical, unless you want DRM. Personally, I do not want to advocate for DRM. I do not believe that robots.txt is an adequate defense against LLM training, and that the onus of keeping up with all LLM user agents should not be on website authors.

   • Embed this notice
     Ben Werdmuller (ben@werd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 05-Jun-2024 23:35:19 JST Ben Werdmuller

     in reply to

     • Kevin Marks
     • Dave Winer ☕️

     @Gargron @KevinMarks @davew In offering Glaze they do seek to prevent artists’ work from being ingested. But beyond Cara, do you see the wider point about consent and author control in the fediverse?

   • Embed this notice
     Eugen Rochko (gargron@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 05-Jun-2024 23:36:34 JST Eugen Rochko

     in reply to

     • かき@GNUsocialJP
     • Ben Werdmuller
     • Kevin Marks
     • Dave Winer ☕️

     @ben @KevinMarks @davew It's worth noting that Glaze is neither a guarantee that something won't be ingested into an LLM, nor is it something that comes at absolutely no cost; depending on setting it creates visible artifacts similar to JPEG compression that I have seen artists complain about. I don't think Glaze is relevant to the federation discussion however.

   • Embed this notice
     Eugen Rochko (gargron@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 05-Jun-2024 23:43:21 JST Eugen Rochko

     in reply to

     • かき@GNUsocialJP
     • Ben Werdmuller
     • Kevin Marks
     • Dave Winer ☕️

     @ben @KevinMarks @davew One more thing. I am not a lawyer, but in my understanding the "default" license for any works you publish on the web is not "public domain", it is "no license". Content published on the fediverse cannot be used for anything, legally, except the intended function of the service. It is only if you want to to give more rights that you'd need "content licensing support". In that sense I also don't see this as a show stopper for federation today.

   • Embed this notice
     Ben Werdmuller (ben@werd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 05-Jun-2024 23:43:22 JST Ben Werdmuller

     in reply to

     • Kevin Marks
     • Dave Winer ☕️

     @Gargron @KevinMarks @davew Thanks for expanding. I think understanding your position on this is really important. I definitely agree that DRM is not the objective; sitting in the US, I don't know that I trust the courts to get to the right place. There's a strong possibility that the EU will do better.

   • Embed this notice
     Dave Winer ☕️ (davew@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 05-Jun-2024 23:50:02 JST Dave Winer ☕️

     in reply to

     • Ben Werdmuller
     • Kevin Marks

     @Gargron @ben @KevinMarks

     i think that's a good approach. glad you've thought this through.

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 05-Jun-2024 23:50:16 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Dave Winer ☕️

     @Gargron @davew ActivityPub is derived from RSS specifically to implement these features (and more)

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 05-Jun-2024 23:52:40 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Alex🇺🇦

     @alex @Gargron I think making accounts private by default (manually approving followers, distributing to followers only) would be mostly effective. Not ironclad but a step in the right direction.

   • Embed this notice
     Alex🇺🇦 (alex@mytoot.de)'s status on Wednesday, 05-Jun-2024 23:52:41 JST Alex🇺🇦

     in reply to

     @Gargron Can they implement the required APIs to join the Fediverse without opening up to AI companies missusing these APIs to scrape off all the hosted art?

   • Embed this notice
     Matthias Pfefferle (pfefferle@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 05-Jun-2024 23:59:38 JST Matthias Pfefferle

     in reply to

     • Dave Winer ☕️
     • Evan Prodromou

     @davew @evan @Gargron See https://activitystrea.ms/specs/atom/1.0/

   • Embed this notice
     Dave Winer ☕️ (davew@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 05-Jun-2024 23:59:39 JST Dave Winer ☕️

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @evan @Gargron

     well that's an interesting statement! 😀

     i'd love to see that realized, a simple namespace for RSS that gives it more compatibility with Mastodon.

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Thursday, 06-Jun-2024 00:09:20 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Ben Werdmuller
     • Kevin Marks
     • Dave Winer ☕️

     @KevinMarks @ben @Gargron @davew dc:license in the AS2 would probably be better

   • Embed this notice
     Kevin Marks (kevinmarks@xoxo.zone)'s status on Thursday, 06-Jun-2024 00:09:22 JST Kevin Marks

     in reply to

     • Ben Werdmuller
     • Dave Winer ☕️

     @ben @Gargron @davew Cara (and Mastodon) could add rel=license support to clarify copyright status.
     I wonder if we need a new license target for Machine-generated (so-called AI) images that are unable to be copyrighted.

   • Embed this notice
     Ben Werdmuller (ben@werd.social)'s status on Thursday, 06-Jun-2024 00:09:23 JST Ben Werdmuller

     in reply to

     • Kevin Marks
     • Dave Winer ☕️

     @Gargron @KevinMarks @davew As a legal principle I think that's right (although also not a lawyer). We may need a case to act as precedent in order to truly establish this beyond doubt.

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Thursday, 06-Jun-2024 00:17:49 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Dave Winer ☕️

     @davew @Gargron the path is RSS -> Atom -> Activity Streams Atom -> Activity Streams JSON 1.0 -> Activity Streams 2.0. It's a long journey!

     I should do a blog post with examples of the same content in each of these formats.

   • Embed this notice
     Quinn Comendant (com@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 06-Jun-2024 02:03:55 JST Quinn Comendant

     in reply to

     @Gargron My girlfriend just came running out of the bedroom to excitedly tell me about this new Instagram-killer named Cara. So, what serendipity you should ask! It looks very cool, and obviously we all hope it gains ActivityPub support. (Seems like they should have just stood up a Pixelfed instance.)

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Thursday, 06-Jun-2024 02:22:10 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Ben Werdmuller
     • Kevin Marks
     • Dave Winer ☕️

     @KevinMarks @ben @Gargron @davew oh, sure, in the rendered web page. It's just easier for programmers to get to in the AS2 if it's a property in the JSON.

   • Embed this notice
     Kevin Marks (kevinmarks@xoxo.zone)'s status on Thursday, 06-Jun-2024 02:22:11 JST Kevin Marks

     in reply to

     • Ben Werdmuller
     • Dave Winer ☕️
     • Evan Prodromou

     @evan @ben @Gargron @davew What we found with people serious about licencing is that an explicit link is the rendered HTML is actively useful - see Flickr for example.

   • Embed this notice
     Anuj Ahooja (quillmatiq@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 06-Jun-2024 02:57:37 JST Anuj Ahooja

     in reply to

     @Gargron No 👏🏼 more 👏🏼 social 👏🏼 silos 👏🏼

     https://www.augment.ink/social-siloes-post/
     https://www.augment.ink/patreon-fediverse/

   • Embed this notice
     silverpill (silverpill@mitra.social)'s status on Thursday, 06-Jun-2024 04:59:51 JST silverpill

     in reply to

     • Alex🇺🇦
     • Evan Prodromou

     @evan @alex @Gargron I think they can also federate in text-only mode (description + link to media). Not perfect UX-wise, but a much stronger protection.

   • Embed this notice
     Jianni (gamacapa@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 06-Jun-2024 22:29:38 JST Jianni

     in reply to

     @Gargron I thought exactly the same about https://fotoapp.co/.