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   Marco Rogers (polotek@social.polotek.net)'s status on Thursday, 18-Apr-2024 03:14:25 JST Marco Rogers

   I've been thinking about something a lot today. I think it's a microcosm of a big problem with the way many average people move through the world.

   Why do so many software engineers hate paying for software?

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     esmevane, sorry (ironchamber@mastodon.esmevane.com)'s status on Thursday, 18-Apr-2024 03:14:23 JST esmevane, sorry

     in reply to

     @polotek

     I have a story I tell people, about a friend of mine, and myself, mid-90s. We both were in a homemade game scene.

     He was rich, and his dad could buy Borland. I wasn't. What that meant was, he could code, and I couldn't.

     So, he took off. He learned, got a job, went to SF, and was doing very well before I even started.

     Later, I found free software. It let me start catching up. So, free tools have always been accessible, paid tools block me until I have money.

     Maybe that's part of it?

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     Marco Rogers (polotek@social.polotek.net)'s status on Thursday, 18-Apr-2024 13:31:46 JST Marco Rogers

     in reply to

     Don't forget to be who you wanna see in the world. Do it all the time. Do it even if you think it doesn't matter. It actually does.

     The money I pay for software is part of somebody's raise. It's part of some dev being able to have their own small business instead of being jerked around by a big company. It matters.

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     Marco Rogers (polotek@social.polotek.net)'s status on Thursday, 18-Apr-2024 13:31:55 JST Marco Rogers

     in reply to

     FWIW, here's where I had the conversation about paying for software a while back over on the bird site. I got a mix of responses. By there was definitely a lot of "I can't believe you actually pay money for things!"

     Anil Dash repeated this.
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     Marco Rogers (polotek@social.polotek.net)'s status on Thursday, 18-Apr-2024 13:32:07 JST Marco Rogers

     in reply to

     The other thing that happens when you talk to people is they feel helpless. Nothing is working the way they want. But they don't think their own actions have any impact on anything. And as a result, they don't do the thing that might help. It feels like we've lost that art of "I'm gonna do my part, even if it's small."

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     Marco Rogers (polotek@social.polotek.net)'s status on Thursday, 18-Apr-2024 13:32:19 JST Marco Rogers

     in reply to

     I could pick on devs more, but that's not really the point I'm making. I don't wanna fight about that specific thing.

     Instead, I was having a larger conversation. It's easy to talk to the average person and have them tell you how they wish things were different. But it's harder to dig deeper on whether those same people make sure their own actions reflect what they want to see in the world.

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     Marco Rogers (polotek@social.polotek.net)'s status on Thursday, 18-Apr-2024 13:32:25 JST Marco Rogers

     in reply to

     This question goes deeper for me. As a person who has managed engineers for many years. Engineers definitely think they should be paid for their labor. And in fact, many of them are underappreciated and deserve a raise. But when you ask those people who is supposed to pay for the software so they can get a paycheck, they don't have an answer.

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     Marco Rogers (polotek@social.polotek.net)'s status on Thursday, 18-Apr-2024 13:32:37 JST Marco Rogers

     in reply to

     I know that most people's first pithy thought is "they think they can build it themselves". But I don't buy it. Most software develops know how hard it is to build solutions that actually feel polished and usable. Our laptops are literally graveyards of projects that never get completed.

     What I'm saying that if anybody in the world understands why good software is worth paying real money, it should be us. But that's often not the case. Why?

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     Jim (mambocab@alcove.website)'s status on Thursday, 18-Apr-2024 14:05:20 JST Jim

     in reply to

     @polotek My gut says that most *people* don't, because the VC bubble has taught us that apps are free. Software engineers just aren't that different.

     It doesn't help that many of us are building free apps for consumers, internal tools, or B2B stuff. Those environments don't necessarily teach the intuition that, yeah actually, it makes sense to pay $50/yr for YNAB or $200 for OmniFocus or whatever. Because what we learn from our jobs is "apps are free" and "paid software is for businesses".

     clacke likes this.
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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Thursday, 18-Apr-2024 14:05:24 JST clacke

     in reply to

     @polotek Do they believe that the money would go to the devs?

     I pay for indie games but I don't want to give Microsoft, Apple or Google any of my money if I can help it, they have enough.

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     esmevane, sorry (ironchamber@mastodon.esmevane.com)'s status on Friday, 19-Apr-2024 00:17:52 JST esmevane, sorry

     in reply to

     @polotek Yeah, it's a tough one.

     I definitely think software and programming work, even write-once, distribute-often stuff, is worth paying for. The "it has to be free or it's evil" mentality isn't useful, or nuanced. It's harmed some devs' livelihoods, too.

     I guess another way to think on my story is less about the code and more about the social structures. But that's harder, and in my case, no one was really to blame for my buddy's privilege. It was good for him, not bad for me.

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     Marco Rogers (polotek@social.polotek.net)'s status on Friday, 19-Apr-2024 00:17:53 JST Marco Rogers

     in reply to

     • esmevane, sorry

     @ironchamber giving things away for free is great. There should always be some part of that in the world. But everything can't be free. What's your philosophy for how things get paid for?

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     esmevane, sorry (ironchamber@mastodon.esmevane.com)'s status on Friday, 19-Apr-2024 00:27:07 JST esmevane, sorry

     in reply to

     @polotek

     I feel like every time I see folks trying to hard-line free software, I don't see any good alternatives presented. How is it actionable to just say something's bad but offer no ideas?

     Are you getting any major pushback on this here / other spots?