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🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 10:15:51 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
@avlcharlie @mapto @volkris
That woukd be an oligarchy. And any government can be an oligarchy, including a capitlist country.

In conversation about a year ago from qoto.org permalink
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  Asheville Charlie (avlcharlie@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 10:19:42 JST Asheville Charlie
  in reply to
  - volkris
  - Martin Ruskov
  @freemo @mapto @volkris
  Follow up..
  So how do you keep from doing that? Is it always The peasants uprising thing?
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
  
  🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 repeated this.
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  🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 10:19:42 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
  in reply to
  @avlcharlie @mapto @volkris
  Now that is a complicated question. But usually the main way its accomplished with what we call antitrust laws. When enforced (and the usa has enforced thrm but not as strongly as it should) they effectively make monopolies illegal.
  Of course the other key is keeping corruption in check and money out of politics, which isnlikewise a difficult task to do, but critical to a healthy capitalism
  
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  iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 10:57:31 JST iced depresso
  in reply to
  @freemo @avlcharlie @mapto @volkris american enforcement of antitrust is something of a joke. its one of the few times the law is extremely broad but because it affects rich government contractors they cut it full of exceptions that don't exist.
  
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  🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 11:01:48 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
  in reply to
  @icedquinn @avlcharlie @mapto @volkris
  I totally agree with you there. I woukd not describe the USA as an ideal capitalism, in part due to lack of enforcement on antitrust laws.
  
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  Dash 🇸🇬 (dashrandom@kopiti.am)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 11:45:20 JST Dash 🇸🇬
  in reply to
  @freemo @avlcharlie @mapto @volkris very interesting discussion. Just thought I'd like to point out that comparisons between Communism and capitalism are tricky because while capitalism is viewed primarily as an economic system (and democracy as a political system that everyone assumes underpins it), Communism is a political, philosophical and economic system.
  The problem is that there have been no real life examples of "pure" Communism ever existing, except perhaps
  
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  Dash 🇸🇬 (dashrandom@kopiti.am)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 11:48:39 JST Dash 🇸🇬
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  @freemo @avlcharlie @mapto @volkris very early social Russia under Lenin. All real life examples of Communism have had either authoritarian or totalitarian rule, often dictatorships.
  The reason for this is that while Marx did define what Communism should have been, he (perhaps intentionally) never defined how it should have been run. With centralized and planned production, it should have been foreseen that a permanent centralized government should have been established to oversee
  
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  Dash 🇸🇬 (dashrandom@kopiti.am)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 11:50:37 JST Dash 🇸🇬
  in reply to
  @freemo @avlcharlie @mapto @volkris and manage these functions. However the Communist Manifesto was written in a time of revolution and unhappiness with the current leadership. Telling the proletariat that after the Bolsheviks were disposed of, a new centralized replacement would take over its function would've been just trading one evil for another (human greed and selfishness and all that) and that would not have compelled the people into revolution.
  I would recommend that instead of solely
  
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  Dash 🇸🇬 (dashrandom@kopiti.am)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 11:54:12 JST Dash 🇸🇬
  in reply to
  @freemo @avlcharlie @mapto @volkris focusing on the Communist Manifesto alone, it would be better to take into consideration the entirety of Marx's works (Das Kapital and the very important but seldom mentioned 1844 Manuscripts) to form an understanding of how he envisioned the political system to function with Communism.
  1844 was essentially the un-watered down version of the Manifesto meant for academics and not the Proletariat; it isn't filled with charged revolutionary language or ideas.
  
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  Dash 🇸🇬 (dashrandom@kopiti.am)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 11:54:36 JST Dash 🇸🇬
  in reply to
  @freemo @avlcharlie @mapto @volkris
  Remember that Marx never viewed capitalism as evil, but a necessary step in achieving communist utopia.
  
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  🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 13:26:49 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
  in reply to
  @dashrandom
  Communism, like capitalism, is often abused as a word. On its own it has nothing to do with marx. It simply means any system where the means and distribution of production are controlled by the government, and socialism is where onky the means of production is owned.
  Marx just had a very specific view of a system of government which he felt included communism with other supporting principles to make it work. Its more appropriate to call his system marxism
  @avlcharlie @mapto @volkris
  
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  🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 13:31:57 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
  in reply to
  @dashrandom @avlcharlie @mapto @volkris
  No marx was right, capitalism and communism arent systems of governments, they are properties of a government. He didnt address those things because he wasnt creating a government he was defining a principle he felt governments should have.
  Not all communist coubtries were totalitarian or dictatorships. Its just the ones that were elected in place by the people were always dismantled by those same people years later when everyone started starving. See bulgaria as an example of that.
  
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  volkris@qoto.org's status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 22:14:12 JST volkris
  in reply to
  @freemo capitalism isn't a property of a government.
  It's not only entirely possible for it to exist outside of any government context, but it's bound to exist there, given human nature and interests.
  @dashrandom @avlcharlie @mapto
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
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  🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 22:24:00 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
  in reply to
  @volkris
  Ita a property of governments. The fact that it is also a property of other things doesnt change that fact.
  @dashrandom @avlcharlie @mapto
  
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  volkris@qoto.org's status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 22:37:51 JST volkris
  in reply to
  
  @freemo I wouldn't say it's a property of governments any more than having secretaries operate Windows PCs is.
  If that's really what you consider a property of governments, then I don't see what the value of emphasizing that property is.
  
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  Dash 🇸🇬 (dashrandom@kopiti.am)'s status on Saturday, 13-Apr-2024 12:00:23 JST Dash 🇸🇬
  in reply to
  @volkris
  @avlcharlie @mapto it isn't. It's a property of the economy. I guess what @freemo may be alluding to is that government influences whether or not capitalism exists. It will definitely exist in a democratic system but may also exist in a totalitarian/authoritarian system (e.g. China).
  
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  🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Saturday, 13-Apr-2024 12:02:17 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
  in reply to
  @dashrandom @volkris @avlcharlie @mapto
  Right. Simply put the laws either create a free market or prevents one.
  
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  Dash 🇸🇬 (dashrandom@kopiti.am)'s status on Saturday, 13-Apr-2024 12:09:45 JST Dash 🇸🇬
  in reply to
  @freemo @avlcharlie @mapto @volkris I beg to differ. Marxism is a philosophy (with his species-being and alienation concepts), Communism is an ideology that the workers are exploited by those who control the means of production, and thus the only way to stop being exploited is to seize the means of production.
  
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  🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Saturday, 13-Apr-2024 12:11:34 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
  in reply to
  @dashrandom @avlcharlie @mapto @volkris
  How is a philosophy and an ideology even different. No clue how your arguing that marxism is not a more specific form of communism.
  
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  Dash 🇸🇬 (dashrandom@kopiti.am)'s status on Saturday, 13-Apr-2024 12:21:28 JST Dash 🇸🇬
  in reply to
  @freemo @avlcharlie @mapto @volkris my response was to your statement that Communism has nothing to do with Marx. Marx was the founder of Communism, it kind of implies it when he wrote the Communist Manifesto. Saying communism has nothing to do with Marx is like saying Higgs has nothing to do with the Higgs-Boson. Marxism is a way of thinking, Communism is a way of looking at the world and living life. You can be Marxist, but not Communist. You however, cannot be Communist but not Marxist.
  
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  🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Saturday, 13-Apr-2024 12:28:06 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
  in reply to
  @dashrandom @avlcharlie @mapto @volkris
  Communism was first enacted by the Jews in ancient israel thousands of years before marx was even a sperm.
  
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  Dash 🇸🇬 (dashrandom@kopiti.am)'s status on Saturday, 13-Apr-2024 12:33:16 JST Dash 🇸🇬
  in reply to
  @freemo @avlcharlie @mapto @volkris I tried a quick Google search to confirm what you've said but I've been unable to find any articles about Jewish Communism in ancient Israel. Wikipedia seems to indicate that Israel and it's surrounding area has always been a monarchy which would imply the non-existence of Communism. Could you provide me some articles or books to read up about this?
  
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  🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Saturday, 13-Apr-2024 12:35:14 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
  in reply to
  @dashrandom @avlcharlie @mapto @volkris How would a monarchy imply the nonexistance of communism? It does not.
  I just looked at wikipedia, here is a quote:
  
  Biblical scholars have argued that the mode of production seen in early Hebrew society was a communitarian domestic one that was akin to primitive communism.[26][27]
  
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  Dash 🇸🇬 (dashrandom@kopiti.am)'s status on Saturday, 13-Apr-2024 15:27:33 JST Dash 🇸🇬
  in reply to
  @freemo @avlcharlie @mapto @volkris could you link the article please? Would appreciate it.
  
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  🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Saturday, 13-Apr-2024 16:14:22 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
  in reply to
  @dashrandom @avlcharlie @mapto @volkris
  Ill have to refind it when i get home. But sure.
  
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  🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Saturday, 13-Apr-2024 16:16:43 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
  in reply to
  @dashrandom @avlcharlie @mapto @volkris
  Not sure because im out and cant read it right now. But i think it was from here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_communism
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    Primitive communism
    
    Primitive communism is a way of describing the gift economies of hunter-gatherers throughout history, where resources and property hunted or gathered are shared with all members of a group in accordance with individual needs. In political sociology and anthropology, it is also a concept (often credited to Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels), that describes hunter-gatherer societies as traditionally being based on egalitarian social relations and common ownership. A primary inspiration for both Marx and Engels were Lewis H. Morgan's descriptions of "communism in living" as practised by the Haudenosaunee of North America. In Marx's model of socioeconomic structures, societies with primitive communism had no hierarchical social class structures or capital accumulation. Development of the idea The original idea of primitive communism is rooted in the idea of the noble savage present in the works of Jean-Jacques Rousseau and the early anthropological work of...

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