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when nisioisin killed araragi on march 15th he was referencing the lamb sacrifice on the ides of march
"The Ides of each month were sacred to Jupiter, the Romans' supreme deity. The Flamen Dialis, Jupiter's high priest, led the "Ides sheep" (ovis Idulis) in procession along the Via Sacra to the arx, where it was sacrificed.[4]"
"A week later, on 22 March, the solemn commemoration of Arbor intrat ("The Tree enters") commemorated the death of Attis under a pine tree. A college of priests, the dendrophoroi ("tree bearers") annually cut down a tree,[14] hung from it an image of Attis,[15] and carried it to the temple of the Magna Mater with lamentations. The day was formalized as part of the official Roman calendar under Claudius (d. 54 AD).[16] A three-day period of mourning followed,[17] culminating with celebrating the rebirth of Attis on 25 March, the date of the vernal equinox on the Julian calendar.[18]
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consistent with the tree associations for araragi and with his rebirth though the time period differs
wonder if he learned about it from those german philosopher books
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Schopenhauer. Death becomes a mere change in the state of consciousness. You go from human consciousness to dirt consciousness for example and vice versa. This is simplifying it a bit. Thus, resurrection is possible.
Similarly, Nietzsche had the eternal recurrence, where a simulicrum of the world would recur over long periods of time, think brahma cycles. Identical physical states, but not identical because they happen elsewhere in time and space. Hence, simulicrum. Thus, theoretically, when you die, and assuming you have no consciousness after, the cycle would pass in a instance to you and you'd be immediately reborn.
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@kvit probably thats pretty generic, sacrificing a god or idol and having it reborn wpuld be wierder, it doesnt seem like the sacrifice and the rebirth are associated for romans, this is more a christian idea, maybe nietzchean im sure theres some german philosopher who had something like this.
it might be more appropriate to say araragi is joyrneying to hell to aquire someone and its only by being half dead that he can do that, remember that at that temple is was the body of the god who was a dead child and that is ononoki and that ononoki and mayoi are very clearly associated, mayoi having died and ononoki not yet reborn.
there are mamy myths of journing into hell, japan has them too, through a cave, of course in the mountains and in the wilderness
also while mayoi is stacking stones to climb up to heaven in the buddhist canon a stack of stones is a cairn which is a semi sacred marker for traversing the wilderness, and this is the start of inverting mayois role of causing lostness as araragi being in hell is very lost and because of her but she leads him out
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it was the 13th (before white actually) but with the tree the sacrifice on the hill the calendar(koyomi means calender) and he did write that volume those 3 days as a block so its probably referenced.
wonder if he just looked up what happened on the days around white day or if he knew it before hand
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@gav Interesting do the Japanese themselves have traditions about the death/rebirth of a hero or god? I don't know enough about Shinto but it would be interesting to compare given the context. That's a pretty cool reference.
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Read Thus Spake Zarathustra. The question is, would you do it again? If you would, it's a good life.
And I don't believe the eternal recurrence relied in identity, but rather simulicrum. This aligns with nietzsche's views of seasons or types or other things that recur, "its summer again, but not the same one as every other summer" "there are three crows right there, but not the same crow."
I also think the recurrence had a suggestion that perhaps it could be driven by will. I can't recall if it was in that book itself or will to power, but I recall a section on the consciousness of atoms and predictability not being evidence they were not. Thus, to look at the recurrence as merely a manifestation of physical order that is not driven by consciousness and will may miss something fundamental.
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@Humpleupagus @gav I can't speak as well on Schopenhauer but with Nietzsche the way I read eternal recurrence wasn't constant identical cycles but time being a closed, flat circle. It was originally a though experiment designed to ask if you would accept your life being the only one without any end or change. I might just be nitpicking but it's like death and rebirth happen in the same place and things simply continue, rather than a proper break in the cycle. He was sort of a determinist on things like this which is a huge distinction from Schopenhauer if I'm correct. I don't know if he ever came to properly believe it or if it remained a thought experiment though.
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I think to nietzsche things recurred, both over short cycles and much larger cycles. I think legth of a cycle was a relative concept though, because things recur.
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You're thinking of will and consciousness being human will and consciousness. That's the mistake. Read Schopenhauer. Nietzsche is borrowing heavily from him and assumes his readers would have been familiar given the era and the culture. Schopenhauer's concept of consciousness / will is very pegan / pan-consciousness.
I think the key you're missing is the concept of identity. It has to go.
Think of the question, are you identical to you? What about you today vs you yesterday? Identical? (And I could play all of this college games here).
Identity is a bad tool in many areas. If you have phillips screw and someone hands you a hex wrench, do you try to figure out why the hex wrench doesn't fit, do you philosophize about how the world would be different if the screw had a different head, or do you say.... this hex wrench is a poor tool, put it down, and grab a phillips screwdriver? Identity is a bad tool. It just doesn't fit. If two things are identical, they are one thing, not two (identity of indicernables). Ergo, identity is something we never really experience, and never seriously apply except in theoretics.
It's easier to think of yourself as recurring. You're you, just like summer is summer. Identity isn't required, and you can will your recurrence. Go work out. Recur bigger. Recurrence is the rule. Identity has nothing to do with it. (The problem is the verb "is," it doesn't account for becoming. This misleads many English speakers).
Also, beware of thinking nietzsche was just doing cute, academic thought experiments. It's how people lead others to dismiss the very heavy concepts he was dealing with, including the nature of being itself.
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@Humpleupagus @gav I did read Zarathustra but it's been a bit, definitely the type of book that deserves a re-read. In Zarathustra it's absolutely a thought experiment that relies on the individual's assessment of their life it says everything will happen in your life exactly the same would you love or hate that, no choice involved, which I believe is a key difference.
In the Will to power he talks about it again and admittedly I don't remember the exact passage but some take it as admitting a real belief, however, it seems strange to say it would be the result of will. Will to power is a drive that calls things to action, I don't see how someone could drive recurrence with their own will.
He definitely saw things as recurring though, especially with his analysis of nations and politics so it wouldn't surprise me if his views evolved on that and I'm just missing a key detail.
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@Senator_Armstrong @gav @Humpleupagus @kvit
To Schopenhauer Will is panentheist, i.e. a force of life pervading all of consciousness. There is one dream but many dreamers who also dream, etc.
Nietzsche sees identity as fate. You are -- as a slice of the Will -- destined to be a specific thing, so live fully into it.
What neither countenanced was individualism, or "me first before all else." Both were essentially traditionalists from the Plato model.
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@Humpleupagus @gav @kvit Tbh I wouldn't have guessed you read nietzche or schopenhauer based on your choice in profile picture bro. Although I think you are too zoomed in. Identity is for group management not just for individual soul searching. Identity is for establishing regional control vs rival empires.
gav
?? Humpleupagus ??
kvit
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Senator_Armstrong
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