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I think the most telling thing re: "sola scriptura vs tradition is how much I've seen the accusation of "you prots make an idol out of scripture!" With no self-reflection on the matter of whether or not tradition could become one or how to avoid that (if so). If you are more worried about the divine and inspired word of God becoming an idol than man-made traditions, you worship the works of man and not God.
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If you read the early church fathers, they point you to scripture- not some oral tradition or magisterium
If you read scripture, it is self referential and points to God.
What does this tell you?
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@doctorsex I think the caution of not making an idol of scripture is still good to heed
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@doctorsex because people can make an idol out of anything, and the scripture is a strong candidate, because it is a physical representation of god. ( the word of god )
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To what end though?
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Yeah, I mean if someone is like a diehard "kjv only" type (like otto mentioned elsewhere in this thread) then that would be an example of that but I'm more talking about sola scriptura writ large and at face value there's nothing in that that directs you to a specific language/translation
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For reference, the "you're making an idol of scripture!" Line is something I usually see in those kinds of conversations where some guy says some wack shit like "having sex with your wife is eeeeeeevil and you're going to go to hell!" And then some other guy pops in and goes, "you got a verse for that?"
If it were just directed at the kjv only guys I wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with it, though I would still object on the grounds that they're making an idol out of the KJV and not scripture itself.
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@doctorsex Yes, conversations like that have very little value.
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Arguably. I think there's value in the insight it can provide into a certain kind of person
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@doctorsex For sure, and the key is they are really arguing about something else, and Christianity is just being used as a weapon
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Some will disagree. However the KJV is probably the most reliable. Later translations used texts that didn't agree with each other and came from questionable places. Egypt being one.
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I think I *enjoy* reading the KJV more but as far as translational accuracy I would imagine there are better options out there, not to mention I like having my fancy study bible with all the footnotes and annotations
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kjv has the most specific word usage imo, but i usally check two or three diff ones as a general rule. kind of like the rashomon effect to find a better understanding.
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It is my personal belief that the internet rad-trad and the 15 year old new convert citation bluffing on ancient texts he hasn't read are an important socio-political phenomena that have yet to be fully and satisfactorily dissected and analyzed
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@doctorsex @sickburnbro tfw you chase Christ not for salvation, but clout (you will end with neither)
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To be fair lossky doesn't seem like he was clergy in any meaningful way, but aside from that you've touched on an important thing I was kind of skirting around, which is how EO seems much more interested with esotericism and deliberate obscurantism.
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@doctorsex @nugger @mkultra
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@nugger @doctorsex
I'm going to explicit to the point of pithiness.
I've read Lossky. I'm more than aware that EOs refuse to translate certain concepts that they believe can't be captured by common parlance. Theosis is one of these, but there are many.
It is a bit tricky analogizing one of these to an English word, especially one that your theologians refuse to translate. Lossky wrote entire chapters attempting to communicate this aspect of what he refers to as the "mystic tradition of the eastern church."
Unfortunately, his reading communicates a view closer to "becoming closer in nature to God" than the spiritual cleansing associated with Sanctification (becoming like a Saint, ie one who was saved).
Dr Sex better communicates this here.
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@doctorsex WELL DON'T BITE THATS MEAN
THEOSIS IS PROBABLY KNOWN TO YOU AS SANCTIFICATION
WHEN YOU GO ABOUT KILLING YOU MAKE YOURSELF INTO A KILLER
WHEN YOU GO ABOUT DOING THE WILL OF GOD, YOU SHAPE YOUR WILL AND CHARACTER TO ALIGN WITH THE CHARACTER OF GOD
IN OUR PRESENT SITUATION, THE PROCESS OF CLEAVING TO GOD GETS INTERRUPTED BY OUR FALLING TO SIN AND GETTING BACK UP FAIRLY REGULARLY
IN THE WORLD TO COME THERE WILL BE NO SIN, SO WE WILL BE FREE TO CONTINUE DRAWING CLOSER TO GOD FOREVER
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@doctorsex GOD DOESN'T ACTUALLY SHOW UP IN NEHEMIAH AND SAY "OH HEY AND IF SOME APOSTLE PAUL SHOWS UP CENTURIES LATER, DON'T ADD HIS LETTERS TO THE CANONS"
AS FOR THE IMPLICATIONS
IT ONLY CARRIES THAT IMPLICATION IF YOU HAVE A FEW UNSTATED PRESUPPOSITIONS
LIKE THAT THE PEOPLE OF GOD ARE ETERNALLY FROZEN IN TIME AND THAT GOD MAKES NO ACCOMODATIONS TO MEET PEOPLE WHERE THEY ARE
AND IF YOU WORK THESE PRESUPPOSITIONS OUT IT MEANS THAT EVERY SINGLE TIME IN THE OLD TESTAMENT WHERE THERE IS A CLEAR SIGN OF EDITORIAL CHANGE, SAY ABRAHAM PASSING THROUGH A CITY CALLED X, WHICH IS NOW CALLED Y -- THAT EDITORIAL CHANGE IS ILLEGITIMATE AND SOMEHOW UNDERMINES THE AUTHORITY OF THE TEXT
MOREOVER,
KNOWING HOW DIFFERENT LANGUAGES ESPECIALLY FROM DIFFERENT LANGUAGE FAMILIES, HAVE DIFFERENT LINGUISTIC STRUCTURES OF MEANING THAT DO NOT CONVENIENTLY MAKE IT ACROSS EVEN IN THE MOST LITERAL WOODEN TRANSLATIONS
DAVAR/DABAR BEING BOTH WORD AND THING, LOGOS BEING WORD AND PATTERN, ETC
ALL TRANSLATION BEING INHERENTLY A WORK OF INTERPRETATION ON PART OF THE TRANSLATOR
THE ASSUMPTION OF THE BIBLICAL CANON AS THE UNCHANGEABLE HEAVENLY QURAN BASICALLY MEANS THAT WE DO NOT HAVE THE ORIGINAL DIVINELY INSPIRED SCRIPTURES
MOSES DIDN'T WRITE GENESIS IN ARAMAIC IMPERIAL BLOCK SCRIPT CLASSICAL HEBREW -- NEITHER EXISTED IN HIS TIME
THE OLDEST THING WE'VE GOT IN WHAT LOOKS LIKE PROTO HEBREW IS THE SONG OF THE SEA, AND YOU GO TRY TO TRANSLATE THAT ONE, ITS SO OLD AND SO WEIRD THAT YOU CAN ARGUE WILDLY ABOUT EVERY WORD
THE REST OF THE OLD TESTAMENT HAD CLEARLY BEEN TRANSLATED AND UPDATED FOR NEW AUDIENCES MULTIPLE TIMES
THE EDITORIAL ACTIVITY HAS CLEARLY BEEN GOING ON FOR GENERATIONS
AND "ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTANI" IS NOT A PHRASE IN CLASSICAL HEBREW, WHICH WAS JUST ABOUT A DEAD LANGUAGE IN FIRST CENTURY AD
NOR IS IT THE GREEK OF THE SEPTUAGINT READ IN THE FIRST CENTURY AD SYNAGOGUES BECAUSE PEOPLE DIDN'T KNOW HEBREW ANYMORE AND THE GREEK TRANSLATION WAS CONSIDERED INSPIRED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT
ITS AN ARAMAIC PHRASE
FROM THE NON-CANONICAL, FANFICTIONY TARGUMS
AND LASTLY
IF THE SCRIPTURAL PATTERN OF GOD CONDESCENDING TO HIS PEOPLE AND MEETING THEM WHERE THEY ARE WAS A LIE, THERE COULD BE NO POSSIBILITY OF MERCY OR SALVATION
FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND THE WAGES OF DEATH ARE SIN
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Ok, I'll bite. If "tradition" is just clarifying these "editorial" issues (names of places, colloquial language, etc.) How do you get from updating names to "btw you can become like God if you meditate hard enough"
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@doctorsex LIKEWISE CHURCH FATHERS
THERE'S A TON OF STUFF THE GENERATION OF THE APOSTLES STUDENTS AND THE GENERATION AFTER THAT ETC HAD WRITTEN, AND WE DON'T HAVE MOST OF IT
TPEOPLE WRITE STUFF, AND THEN THROUGH THE YEARS, GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, ONLY THE SPIRITUALLY USEFUL STUFF ENDS UP PRESERVED
AND THATS THE EXPLANATION FOR WHICH VERSION OF THE SCRIPTURE OR WHICH TRANSLATION IS AUTHORITATIVE -- ITS THE ONE YOU GOT
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@doctorsex AND THIS KIND OF EDITORIAL ACTIVITY BEING THE ACTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO IS GOD, IS WHAT "THE HOLY TRADITION" REFERS TO
OTS NOT TRADITION LIKE SALUTING THE FLAG OR FAMILY REUNION AT GRANDMAS ON THANKSGIVING
RUSSIANS DIVING INTO ICE HOLES ON EPIPHANY DAY ISN'T THE HOLY TRADITION -- ITS A RUSSIAN CULTURAL CUSTOM
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>EDITORIAL ACTIVITY
See, that raises a couple of red flags. God is pretty clear through scripture that noone is going to come along and add onto it. Further, it carries the implication that an omnipotent and omniscient being somehow got something wrong the first time around and needs to add stuff back on and whittle it down so that we understand it seems incredibly unlikely, not to mention uncharacteristic, based on what we know about him from the, we'll say, "primary sources".
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@doctorsex IT TELLS ME THAT THERE IS NOT AN IMPASSABLE DICHOTOMY BETWEEN MAN AND GOD
THAT THE WHOLE OF HOLY TRADITION, THE SCRIPTURE AND THE FATHERS, POINTS TO SYNERGISM AND COOPERATIVE WORK OF MAN AND GOD
(I DON'T WANT TO HURT CALVINS FEELINGS BUT IT SEEMS HE INVENTED SOMETHING THAT WASN'T THERE)
THAT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE INSPIRATION OF SCRIPTURE BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, WE'RE NOT TALKING OF POSSESSION THAT STRIPS MAN OF HIS WILL
YOU KNOW, LIKE THAT THE APOSTLES WENT INTO A TRANCE AND THEN WOKE UP AND THE TEXTS OF THE HEAVENLY QURAN WERE BEFORE THEM ON PAPER
LIKE KING SAUL VISITING THE MONASTERY AND BEING SET UPON BY THE HOLY SPIRIT TYPE THING
BUT THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A SPIRIT, LIKE THE SPIRITS OF PLACE AND ZEITGEIST AND SPIRIT OF OUR TIMES AND SCHOOL SPIRIT (WHICH IF WE HAVE IT LETS HEAR IT)
A SPIRITUAL POWER THAT GUIDES THE ACTIONS OF PEOPLE THAT HE INDWELLS AND SHEPHERDS
SAINT PAUL WROTE A LOT OF LETTERS TO A TON OF CHURCHES, AND IT ISN'T AS THOUGH HE WENT "AH YES THATS SCRIPTURE, MEANWHILE THIS ONE IS JUST A REGULAR OLE PASTORAL CARE EPISTLE"
OVER TIME, THE CHURCHES, GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, HAVE DECIDED
"WE READ THESE PARTICULAR EPISTLES, OUT OF THE LONG CHAIN OF EPISTLES TO THE EPHESIANS, IN CHURCH. AND OTHER STUFF LIKE EPISTLE TO THE LAODICEANS -- WE CAN SKIP"
AND IT DOESN'T GET COPIED IN THE DAILY READING BOOKS OF A TON OF CHURCHES, AND IT DOESN'T GET PRESERVED
AND NOW THERE'S NO EPISTLE TO THE LAODICEANS OTHER THAN AN ACADEMIC CURIOSITY FOR NEW TESTAMENT SCHOLARSHIP
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@nugger @doctorsex There's nothing like opening up a book just to find that you're about three steps removed from the required knowledge to truly grasp it.
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@doctorsex AND THAT IS A THOROUGHLY UNSCRIPTURAL PERSPECTIVE
GOD WORKS THROUGH MEN ALL THE TIME
PROPHETS INDWELT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, WITH A PROPHECY THAT ONE DAY THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL POUR OUT ON ALL THE ASSEMBLY OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD AND ALL WILL PROPHESY
SUSPICIOUSLY SIMILAR TO THE CHURCH BEING GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT IN HER COLLECTIVE DECISIONS
AND ITS AN IDEA THAT DOESN'T COME FROM THE SCRIPTURES BUT VERY OBVIOUSLY COMES FROM LE TEACHING MAGISTERIUM OF THE INDEFECTIBLE SEE OF AACHEN AND AVIGNON, THE PONTIFEX SEAT OF ITALIAN STALLION POPE BOYARDEE
ITS A BLATANT, TRANSPARENT REACTION AGAINST THE MEDIEVAL VATICAN DOCTRINE OF THE TREASURY OF MERITS
SAINTS EARNING GOOD BOY POINTS THAT CAN BE DISPENSED AT WILL TO BOOTSTRAP SOME SINNERS BY MEANS OF THE EPIC PONTIFEX MAXIMUS HOLDING THE MICROTRANSACTION KEYS
SO YOU BETTER PLAY NICE WITH HIM OR ELSE HE'LL BAN YOUR ACCOUNT
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@doctorsex IT HAPPENED FOR A REASON
BUT IS IT REAL IN THE ETERNAL SENSE, OR IS IT PECULIAR AND PARTICULAR TO SIXTEENTH CENTURY GERMANY?
IT SHOULD BE FAIRLY EASY TO CHECK
PROTESTANT NEW TESTAMENT SCHOLARS SHOULD JUST COMPARE REFORMATION ERA THEOLOGY WITH WHAT WE HAVE FROM THE EARLY CHURCH
THEY COULD CALL IT "PAUL'S RECEPTION THEORY" OR "PAUL IN THE CONTEXT OF SECOND TEMPLE, MODEL" OR WHATEVER
SEE HOW PAUL'S STUDENTS AND CONTEMPORARIES UNDERSTOOD CONCEPTS LIKE WORKS, LAW, AND GRACE
MAYBE EVEN WRITE A VERY DRY ACADEMIC DISSERTATION ABOUT THAT COMPARISON AND SELL IT ON AMAZON FOR FORTY BUCKS AND SOME EXTREMELY ONLINE RETARD OUT THERE WILL BUY IT AND REALIZE HE'S WAY OUT OF HIS DEPTH HALFWAY THROUGH THE BOOK BUT THE MONEY'S ALREADY BEEN SPENT
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@doctorsex THIS REFUSAL OF SYNERGY BETWEEN HUMAN AND DIVINE ACTIVITY IS VERY CORE TO A GOOD CHUNK OF PROTESTANTISM
THAT MAN AND GOD ARE ENEMIES, (YEAH EVEN AFTER THE INCARNATION, THE LORD JESUS WAS APPARENTLY POWERLESS TO BRING PEACE BETWEEN THE TWO)
AND ONE MUST MASTER AND SUBSUME THE OTHER BUT NEVER WILL THEY BE AT PEACE
WHEN YOU HELP THE OLD LADY CROSS THE STREET, YOU ARE NOT PARTICIPATING IN GOD'S ACTIVITY IN THIS WORLD
YOU ARE NOT BEING AN INSTRUMENT OF GOD'S WILL BY LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR
INSTEAD YOU ARE CREATING A NOVEL AND CATEGORICALLY DIFFERENT KIND OF FOOD FROM THE GOOD OF GOD AND THEREFORE IT ISN'T GOOD
RESCUE KITTENS OUT OF TREES OR GO OUT A-RAPIN, YOUR DEEDS ARE ALL AS FILTHY RAGS
BECAUSE YOUR GOOD WORKS ARE YOUR OWN
THEY'RE NOT THE WORKS OF GOD BY YOUR HAND, WHICH GOD CAN CALL GOOD BECAUSE THEY ARE HIS WORKS
IF YOUR WORKS WERE THE WORKS OF GOD, YOUR WILL WOULD BE ABROGATED
IT WOULD HAVE TO BE UNINTENTIONAL AND SPONTANEOUS, OR FORCEFUL
KING SAUL AMONG THE PROPHETS
AND SO IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO ALIGN YOUR WILL WITH THE WILL OF GOD
Dr. Sex, Ph.d, Esq.
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