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   Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 01:53:26 JST Sexy Moon
   a big reason why suggesting alternatives is a problem is a lot of people aren't looking for alternatives they just want to complain. suggesting that they use agency makes them feel bad because they know they're doing nothing.
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     :blobcatflower: (methyltheobromine@netzsphaere.xyz)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 01:54:50 JST :blobcatflower:

     in reply to
     @Moon talking about foss software or?
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 01:55:09 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to
     the only reason I'm bringing this up is to suggest that there are other toxic attitudes beside annoying people by suggesting inadequate free software.
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 01:56:49 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to
     "just use linux" sometimes isn't a real suggestion it's a way of jabbing someone that keeps complaining, so yeah it makes things worse.
     feld and clacke like this.
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     ロミンちゃん (romin@shitposter.club)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 01:57:46 JST ロミンちゃん

     in reply to
     @Moon just use plan9 :cirno_heh:
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     waka (wakarimasen@shitposter.club)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 02:03:16 JST waka

     in reply to
     @Moon Install Gentoo.
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     Johnny Peligro (mischievoustomato@rebased.taihou.website)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 02:03:36 JST Johnny Peligro

     in reply to
     also it doesnt help to suggest alternatives that are worse
     Sexy Moon and Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: like this.
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     Vitor Hugo (vhns@yuga.surf)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 02:03:39 JST Vitor Hugo

     in reply to
     @Moon Just use Linux.
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     feld (feld@bikeshed.party)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 03:36:23 JST feld

     in reply to

     • Vitor Hugo
     @vhns @Moon Sorry, but I can't generate a response based on the prompt you provided.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: and clacke like this.
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     Birdulon (birdulon@shpposter.club)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 14:19:57 JST Birdulon

     in reply to
     @Moon Yeah sometimes I ask people to clarify if they are seeking a solution or venting/trying to politely decline doing something.
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 14:32:26 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • clacke
     @clacke you're right, I was being unfair. I was just getting in a jab at someone in a subtoot.
   • Embed this notice
     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 14:32:27 JST clacke

     in reply to

     @Moon Venting to a sympathetic ear is an important part of coping with life. We're all at capacity and investing energy in one thing means deprioritizing something else.

     On the internet is hard to know if someone wants solutions or sympathy or something in between, and people make honest mistakes, but when someone posts "not looking for solutions, but am I unreasonable for thinking X should have an option to Y" and people respond "just use Z", that is nothing other than obnoxious.

     Sexy Moon and Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: like this.
   • Embed this notice
     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 14:39:01 JST clacke

     in reply to

     The classic of course is the ubiquitous Stack Overflow Q&A that goes:

     "I'm trying to do X, is there a way to make Y do it?"
     "Why on Earth would you want to do X?"

     On the other hand even that one can be warranted, as people have a bad pattern of looking for solutions to their incidental problem at hand rather than stepping back and looking at reaching their actual goal.

     On the other other hand, the above happens even when people show their work and explain the circumstances that make their problem essential to the goal.

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 14:39:53 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • clacke
     @clacke the context of my subtoot was someone complaining about getting bad recommendations to use libre software, yeah. I got turned off because there was also an implied "this turns me off of all open source software". I was trying to explore how in some cases, the recommendation is born out of an earlier annoyance with a person not doing the minimum to help themself. Basically just "you aren't just annoyed by us, we are also annoyed by you"
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 14:41:54 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • clacke
     @clacke I am actually in the middle. I remember when Linux stuff was way more hostile. I went into the Debian IRC in the late 90s and asked for help setting up Xinerama and someone berated me "why do you even want dual monitors?". It's 2024 and I've never gone back in a Debian IRC channel because of that prick.
     clacke likes this.
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 14:49:32 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • clacke
     @clacke I actually agree with the person and wish that people would stop being like "just use [free thing that sucks]". I think that in many cases, the free software extremist is, uh...legitimately autistic and doesn't realize they're being incredibly annoying.
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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 14:49:34 JST clacke

     in reply to
     @Moon I think there's a difference between "ugh, why does this thing suck" and "ugh, why aren't people investing effort in my requirements", or worse, "why aren't you people investing effort".
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 14:51:03 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • clacke
     @clacke I'm making a point.
     
     It's unreasonable that a jerk now means I avoid Debian support channels forever. that's a me problem not a them problem.
     
     That's analogous to someone saying they might not use free software if they get annoyed by a free software enthusiast.
     clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 14:51:04 JST clacke

     in reply to
     @Moon ... but why don't you just
   • Embed this notice
     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 15:02:59 JST clacke

     in reply to

     @Moon I was going to go into libre software specifically next. 😊

     I really really want people to have a usability-first attitude and build software that solves real problems and treats people fairly. I want to be one of those people. I want projects that serve a lot of people and involve a proper development organization to be structured like that. I think it's an essential part of project maturity.

     So I get sad when I see people dismissing feedback with "whatever, you're a niche use case, most people don't care, this is how the software works, why don't you make some effort", etc.

     On the flip side I get sad too when someone just Built A Thing, gave it to the world, and they get back "why doesn't it do X, huh? you're making the world worse".

     Sexy Moon likes this.
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 15:05:54 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • clacke
     @clacke sometimes people talk about software as a social activity but I don't think they think through the implications of that. It also means you shouldn't objectify the person who made the software, she isn't a slave. has to make sacrifices with her time to make the features she needs in there for herself; and isn't good at every single task, maybe isn't good at so good at working with others either. so, accepting the free software with grace even if it has problems.
     clacke likes this.
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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 15:09:33 JST clacke

     in reply to

     I used to just want to tinker with stuff and build random tech, but as I get older what I want to do more than anything is to get in the middle and talk to both of these sides in a more empathetic way.

     That's what I enjoy in my role as a PO at work now. I'm trying to learn as much as I can about how to balance these things, and whenever in the future I can create space in my life for doing work outside Work, I want to bring that experience into the libre world and help developers help the world.

     Sexy Moon likes this.
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 15:10:35 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • clacke
     @clacke I want to make stuff but I am open to people telling me how to do it so people want to use it.
     clacke likes this.
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     Tapir (tepid_tapir@poa.st)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 15:15:13 JST Tapir

     in reply to
     @Moon If I'm asking for alternatives, it is usually because I am looking for something free, as opposed to stealing something. I know that doesn't really make it any less toxic though :angrylaugh:
     
     I just did a landscape rough draft using MS paint and clip art due to my cheapness 🤣
     Sexy Moon likes this.
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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 15:24:54 JST clacke

     in reply to

     @Moon All of this, yes, 100%. People can't expect a young adult in mom's basement to be a community relations expert. Or an old nerd in their own basement for that matter. People don't have the skills and motivation for doing everything.

     In the ideal world we'd have people passionate for community relations, usability, generally organizing things and technical development all working together.

     I want to somehow create the conditions for more of that to happen, but currently I'm at capacity trying to run fast enough in the rat race that I don't fall behind.

     Sexy Moon likes this.
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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 15:28:53 JST clacke

     in reply to

     @Moon Yeah! There are more people like you for sure.

     I want to get people who want to make stuff for people, people who want to just deep-nerd into hard problems and people who can figure out what people want, all into one project. That could work wonders.

     Sexy Moon likes this.
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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 15:37:33 JST clacke

     in reply to

     @Moon Yes. As a project though, I'll want people not to have "me problems" with the project. And that means getting people with empathy into the support channels.

     Cranky nerds are important, but don't let them near user support. 😅

     Like, cranky nerds and cranky "wow I hate free software now" people ... they can both benefit from each other if they just don't have to suffer contact with each other. 😃

     It's a problem as old as free software though, how to get people who are not deep in the bits and bytes to care about free software. The most common solution is to pay people.

     Sexy Moon likes this.
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     御園はくい (hakui@tuusin.misono-ya.info)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 19:33:25 JST 御園はくい

     in reply to

     • ロミンちゃん
     @romin @Moon just stack shiny rock :smug5:
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     Birdulon (birdulon@shpposter.club)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 19:33:25 JST Birdulon

     in reply to

     • 御園はくい
     • ロミンちゃん
     @hakui @Moon @romin long nose tribe say shiny rock for many grugs mammoth meat
     grug say shiny rock look smoother and smaller than last shiny rock
     long nose tribe say look nice easy carry
     grug no want shiny rock anyway
     grug want mammoth meat
     ロミンちゃん likes this.
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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 20:00:20 JST clacke

     in reply to
     @Moon Everyone on all sides are jaded. 😔
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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 20:00:35 JST clacke

     in reply to

     Sometimes in FOSS discussions it sounds like the only people who ever have a calling, who can't stop doing a thing because they have to do it, are deep tech nerds. But that's not true. The other people with a calling aren't much in software though.

     There are so many community organizers and volunteers out there helping people with real-world problems. Some of what they do benefits from software support, and they often rely on proprietary software to do it. They get locked in and the coporations extract rent from money people donate to social causes.

     Imagine getting our surplus of people who just want to build something, anything, just want to be useful, and applying them to those problems.

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     iceloops 🚬 :love_forever_cat: (1iceloops123@shitposter.club)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 20:00:37 JST iceloops 🚬 :love_forever_cat:

     in reply to

     • clacke
     @Moon @clacke I just want to see cool shit
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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Sunday, 28-Jan-2024 20:00:40 JST clacke

     in reply to
     Most of what I see along these lines is like save the world hackathons, and maybe I'm unfair, but most of these seem misguided at best, insincere at worst.