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   Hrefna (DHC) (hrefna@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 12-Jan-2024 13:57:37 JST Hrefna (DHC)

   I'm absolutely begging so-called leftists to stop spreading anti-#union propaganda without at least minimal fact checking.

   Absolutely begging people.

   If you want counterexamples of this they are literally everywhere.

   We can start with my union:

   https://www.alphabetworkersunion.org/our-people

   or the union we're under, CWA:

   https://cwa-union.org/about/leadership

   I get that there are a long history of problems in unions, and also you don't make things better by spreading lies and half truths about them.

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     Hrefna (DHC) (hrefna@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 13-Jan-2024 05:15:43 JST Hrefna (DHC)

     in reply to

     We need to have a serious conversation at some point about how to be critical of unions without feeding anti-#union narratives, because it is absolutely doable but 99% of the time when I see a "leftist" attempt it they just spread anti-union talking points uncritically (and then often a bunch o peole will repeat what they said without checking it, or just boost and forget about it, amplifying it to a broader audience).

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     Hrefna (DHC) (hrefna@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 13-Jan-2024 05:16:00 JST Hrefna (DHC)

     in reply to

     Rule #1: Unions are working as a countervailing power against a much. much more powerful entity. If you are criticizing them in such a way that you lose sight of this, you are spreading anti-union propaganda.

     It's not that there aren't or can't be problems, not that there can't be criticism, it is that you are criticizing a _much smaller and weaker entity_ whose purpose and existence are rooted in fighting the much bigger and more powerful entity.

     That is the lens.

     #union

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     Hrefna (DHC) (hrefna@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 13-Jan-2024 05:16:14 JST Hrefna (DHC)

     in reply to

     Rule #2: Unions can be overthrown from within.

     It's happened repeatedly.

     If you want your union to be more democratic, or more militant, or whatever there is a path to do it. You can look at the history of Unite All Workers for Democracy: https://uawd.org and the actions of the Chicago Teachers Union described in No Shortcuts: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/no-shortcuts-9780190624712?cc=us&lang=en&

     Now think about the things they are standing in opposition to. Can you change them the same way?

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     Hrefna (DHC) (hrefna@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 13-Jan-2024 05:16:30 JST Hrefna (DHC)

     in reply to

     Rule #3: If you are an outsider, you need to be extra careful in your criticism. If you are in a union, you get a little more leeway _with your union_.

     It is _so so easy_ to say that _others_ "should" do something. It is so much harder to _actually do it_.

     To get the alignment, to get the stars aligned, to weigh the balance of costs that the outsider.

     Now, some people have been badly hurt by the behavior of their union reps, or the structure of their union, etc. This isn't to minimize that.

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     Hrefna (DHC) (hrefna@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 13-Jan-2024 05:16:37 JST Hrefna (DHC)

     in reply to

     Rather: this is true of pretty much _all groups of humans throughout history_.

     The big unions are often old, old organizations. They are going to have a lot of bad stuff in their history.

     We can offer criticism that history and even current behavior without losing sight of what the fight is about and without losing sight of the bigger picture, and we can _absolutely_ do it without making things up or using hyperbole.

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     Jess👾 (jesstheunstill@infosec.exchange)'s status on Saturday, 13-Jan-2024 05:16:46 JST Jess👾

     in reply to

     @hrefna
     It is MUCH easier to get from "we have an imperfect union" to "we have a better union" then it EVER will be to get from "we have no union" to "we have a great union".

     Union organizing takes time, effort, and experience. Until you have that experience, you borrow from those who have it.

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     Yuki 🏳️‍🌈🇨🇦 (yuki@slippy.xyz)'s status on Saturday, 13-Jan-2024 05:16:54 JST Yuki 🏳️‍🌈🇨🇦

     in reply to

     @hrefna@hachyderm.io
     If they're anti-union they're rightwing!

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     Selena (selena@ivoor.eu)'s status on Saturday, 13-Jan-2024 05:17:02 JST Selena

     in reply to

     • small circle 🕊 in calmness
     • Yuki 🏳️‍🌈🇨🇦

     @smallcircles @hrefna @Yuki
     And some of the criticisms are definitely true, such as Dutch unions repeatedly taking the side of their old members over that of (future) young members.

     But yeah, also plenty of people who think they don't need a union because they are in a high-demand job and can't imagine that ever changing.

     (btw: in the Netherlands union-membership is individual, thus every mid&large-sized company has some union-members and most sectors use collective bargaining agreements)

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     small circle 🕊 in calmness (smallcircles@social.coop)'s status on Saturday, 13-Jan-2024 05:17:04 JST small circle 🕊 in calmness

     • Yuki 🏳️‍🌈🇨🇦

     @hrefna @Yuki

     What I've seen in the Netherlands, where unions were traditionally quite strong, is that for the last 2 decades or so a sentiment has been spreading that they are old-fashioned, from a different era, and somehow more relevant to people in blue collar jobs.

     Esp. in IT there's a false sense of job security, and a kind of individualism and privilege by 'spoiled' employees used to great demand for their work, the nicest perks, and job-hopping very normal. So why join a union, right?

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