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  1. Embed this notice
    🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 03:07:57 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

    You can tune any instrument to any arbitrary frequency for center-c and as long as all the notes are of the same relative difference between them the melodies will generally work and harmonize. As long as all the instruments are synced it will sound ok in a band too.

    In modern day we have a definition of what frequency center C is. But I have to wonder, how do we know the modern day frequency for middle-C is anywhere near the frequency used historically. In fact, when even was the idea solidified at all?

    #Music #MusicTheory

    In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 03:07:57 JST from qoto.org permalink

    Attachments

    1. Domain not in remote thumbnail source whitelist: www.hitmedia.in
      Under Construction
    • Embed this notice
      K‮ly‬e (khird@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 03:49:23 JST K‮ly‬e K‮ly‬e
      in reply to

      @freemo en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_pitch_standards_in_Western_music

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 03:49:23 JST permalink

      Attachments

      1. Domain not in remote thumbnail source whitelist: upload.wikimedia.org
        Concert pitch
        Concert pitch is the pitch reference to which a group of musical instruments are tuned for a performance. Concert pitch may vary from ensemble to ensemble, and has varied widely over time. The ISO defines international standard pitch as A440, setting 440 Hz as the frequency of the A above middle C. Frequencies of other notes are defined relative to this pitch. The written pitches for transposing instruments do not match those of non-transposing instruments. For example, a written C on a B♭ clarinet or trumpet sounds as a non-transposing instrument's B♭. The term "concert pitch" is used to refer to the pitch on a non-transposing instrument, to distinguish it from the transposing instrument's written note. The clarinet or trumpet's written C is thus referred to as "concert B♭". Modern standard concert pitch The A above middle C is often set at 440 Hz. Historically, this A has been tuned to a variety of different pitches. History of pitch standards in Western...
    • Embed this notice
      tatzelbrumm@qoto.org's status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:39:11 JST tatzelbrumm tatzelbrumm
      in reply to

      @freemo
      You can't tune any instrument for any arbitrary frequency.
      That's why the tuning sequence of an orchestra starts with the oboe.
      Historic woodwind instruments preserve their pitch even if measurement instrumentation to determine absolute frequency wasn't available when they were built.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:39:11 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      tatzelbrumm@qoto.org's status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:40:11 JST tatzelbrumm tatzelbrumm
      in reply to

      @freemo
      You can't tune any instrument for any arbitrary frequency.
      That's why the tuning sequence of an orchestra starts with the oboe.
      Historic woodwind instruments preserve their pitch and make it available to contemporary precision frequency meters even though measurement instrumentation to determine absolute frequency wasn't available when they were built.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:40:11 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:42:21 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      in reply to
      • tatzelbrumm

      @tatzelbrumm Huh? I dont follow how you got to the consequent from that antecedent.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:42:21 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      tatzelbrumm@qoto.org's status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:45:39 JST tatzelbrumm tatzelbrumm
      in reply to

      @freemo
      How can you determine absolute pitch of musical instruments that were built when no precise frequency measurement device was available?

      You examine instruments that cannot really be tuned, but whose pitch is based solely on their geometry and physical constants that don't change over time.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:45:39 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      tatzelbrumm@qoto.org's status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:46:32 JST tatzelbrumm tatzelbrumm
      in reply to

      @freemo
      How can you determine absolute pitch of musical ensembles from times when precise frequency measurement device was available?

      You examine instruments that cannot really be tuned, but whose pitch is based solely on their geometry and physical constants that don't change over time.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:46:32 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      tatzelbrumm@qoto.org's status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:47:01 JST tatzelbrumm tatzelbrumm
      in reply to

      @freemo
      How can you determine absolute pitch of musical ensembles from times before precise frequency measurement devices were available?

      You examine instruments that cannot really be tuned, but whose pitch is based solely on their geometry and physical constants that don't change over time.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:47:01 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:49:12 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      in reply to
      • tatzelbrumm

      @tatzelbrumm

      > How can you determine absolute pitch of musical ensembles from times before precise frequency measurement devices were available?

      You cant, thats was the whole point of my post. Today we tune to specific frequencies as a base line. In the past it was arbitrary. How far back in the past determines how arbitrary it is.

      Thats the whole point, a song that may have survived a long time may have been intended for a very different pitch than it is in modern times. Unless they had some standard way to get an approximate baseline pitch (such as defining a standard for the size of a tuning fork)

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:49:12 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      tatzelbrumm@qoto.org's status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:53:24 JST tatzelbrumm tatzelbrumm
      in reply to

      @freemo
      There are (wind) instruments whose pitch only depends on physical dimension and speed of sound, cf.
      https://www.oboefiles.com/why-does-the-oboe-tune-the-orchestra-and-how-to-do-it-right/

      If the physical dimension and speed of sound didn't change since the instruments were build, you can reconstruct absolute pitch from the past.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:53:24 JST permalink

      Attachments


    • Embed this notice
      🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:55:20 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      in reply to
      • tatzelbrumm

      @tatzelbrumm Right, and such a windinstrument **if** the dimensions are preceisly standardized would be a frequency reference itself. I agree at that point you have a somewhat standardized middle C.

      But when did wind instruments become universally standardized in their dimensions? Moreover when did such a standard become closely aligned with a specific musical note.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:55:20 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      tatzelbrumm@qoto.org's status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:58:20 JST tatzelbrumm tatzelbrumm
      in reply to
      • K‮ly‬e

      @freemo,
      looks like @khird linked to a good reference article for this question of yours about tuning conventions and their evolution.
      My answers cover the physical principles that allow reconstruction of these conventions over time without having to rely on recorded traditions.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:58:20 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Vin (favrion@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 06:24:12 JST Vin Vin
      in reply to

      @freemo It probably went like this:

      Person 1: Your talk of counting vibrations of a twine is witchcraft.

      Person 2: No, it makes a difference. Watch: (vibrates string at 261.63 Hz) Seeee?

      Person 1: C? That is absurd! Graphemes are for scribes, not bards.

      Person 2: And judgment is for judges, not peasants.

      Person 1: ...Tell me more about your black magic.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 06:24:12 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Reach for the Stars :verified: (antares@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 06:49:20 JST Reach for the Stars :verified: Reach for the Stars :verified:
      in reply to

      @freemo We can say with certainty that concert pitch (actually set by A4 being standardized at 440hz today) was higher in the past - as high as A = 401hz. Not every instrument is tunable. Bells and some double reed instruments will never change pitch over their life times. By looking at bells from the 15th and 16th c we can tell that music was in general pitched somewhat higher then today.

      The big innovation in modern tuning is equal temperament. All modern digital tuning has an precisely equal ratio between each half step. (about 1.059 to 1) This makes music work like you describe. Start on any pitch and the music will sound the same if the relative intervals are followed.

      However much more than absolute pitch, relative pitch is hard without modern measurement methods, Prior to the 1700s the most common tuning was to tune in pure 5ths where every 5th was tuned by ear to a 2/3 ratio. It works pretty well until you get to the point where you go from the end of the circle of fifths back to what should be the note you started on. You find you are off by a scotch less than a quarter tone. This terrible sounding interval is a "wolf fifth" because it howls.

      In pure fifths each key had its own flavor and so it was important to play a piece in the key it was written in. The major thirds that define the modern major chords are the most effected by these variations which explains why many pieced before JS Back and company are dominated by 4ths and 5ths that are safer in a pure-fifths tuning.

      Bach's innovation which caught on across western music was to "fudge the thirds" to make them all sound similar - giving us the last common tuning the so called well-tempered tuning.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 06:49:20 JST permalink

      Attachments

      1. No result found on File_thumbnail lookup.
        http://howls.In/
    • Embed this notice
      ⊥ᵒᵚ⁄Cᵸᵎᶺᵋᶫ∸ᵒᵘ ☑️ (falken@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 06:50:55 JST ⊥ᵒᵚ⁄Cᵸᵎᶺᵋᶫ∸ᵒᵘ ☑️ ⊥ᵒᵚ⁄Cᵸᵎᶺᵋᶫ∸ᵒᵘ ☑️
      in reply to
      • tatzelbrumm

      @freemo @tatzelbrumm of your instrument didn't sound like your peers, you'd tune the odd one out to match. Factor in traveling musicians and it settles to a standard.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 06:50:55 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 06:51:03 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      in reply to
      • Reach for the Stars :verified:

      @antares The bell approach makes a **lot** of sense. that said bells can presumably be tuned by grinding,and i assume that is how they are fine tuned after the initial casting. But yea your point that once tuned they tend to remain fixed and cant be tuned without modifying the instrument makes a lot of sense.

      Thanks for a wonderful response, lots of good info here.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 06:51:03 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 06:52:11 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      in reply to
      • tatzelbrumm
      • ⊥ᵒᵚ⁄Cᵸᵎᶺᵋᶫ∸ᵒᵘ ☑️

      @falken

      Right, id expect there to be local syncing and even somewhat of a natural local standard that would form naturally... The question is more about when did people try to quantify and define those standards against an actual frequency that is some how referenced.

      @tatzelbrumm

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 06:52:11 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      ⊥ᵒᵚ⁄Cᵸᵎᶺᵋᶫ∸ᵒᵘ ☑️ (falken@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 07:45:46 JST ⊥ᵒᵚ⁄Cᵸᵎᶺᵋᶫ∸ᵒᵘ ☑️ ⊥ᵒᵚ⁄Cᵸᵎᶺᵋᶫ∸ᵒᵘ ☑️
      in reply to
      • tatzelbrumm

      @freemo @tatzelbrumm

      "Scientific pitch was originally proposed in 1713 by French physicist Joseph Sauveur and based on the numerically convenient frequency of 256 Hz for middle C,"

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_(musical_note)#Middle_C

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 07:45:46 JST permalink

      Attachments

      1. No result found on File_thumbnail lookup.
        C (musical note)
        C or Do is the first note and semitone of the C major scale, the third note of the A minor scale (the relative minor of C major), and the fourth note (G, A, B, C) of the Guidonian hand, commonly pitched around 261.63 Hz. The actual frequency has depended on historical pitch standards, and for transposing instruments a distinction is made between written and sounding or concert pitch. It has enharmonic equivalents of B♯ and D. In English the term Do is used interchangeably with C only in the context of fixed Do solfège; in the movable Do system Do refers to the tonic of the prevailing key. Frequency Historically, concert pitch has varied. For an instrument in equal temperament tuned to the A440 pitch standard widely adopted in 1939, middle C has a frequency around 261.63 Hz (for other notes see piano key frequencies). Scientific pitch was originally proposed in 1713 by French physicist Joseph Sauveur and based on the numerically convenient frequency of 256 Hz for middle C, all C's being powers of two. After the A440 pitch standard was adopted...
    • Embed this notice
      🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 07:46:51 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
      in reply to
      • tatzelbrumm
      • ⊥ᵒᵚ⁄Cᵸᵎᶺᵋᶫ∸ᵒᵘ ☑️

      @falken

      Awesome... excellent find!

      @tatzelbrumm

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 07:46:51 JST permalink

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