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1. Embed this notice
   scy (scy@chaos.social)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 06:26:05 JST scy

   So #Kagi is now partnering with #Brave, i.e. the company of Brendan Eich, who has been CEO at Mozilla for eleven days before he had to leave due to massive criticism of his homophobic views. Brave's most well-known product is a browser with its own cryptocurrency, co-designed by Eich.

   A feedback post asking Kagi to reconsider has been closed by Kagi's founder Vladimir Prelovac because "Considering company x founder political views is not a factor in [their] evaluation".

   https://kagifeedback.org/d/2808-reconsider-your-partnership-with-brave

   • Paul Cantrell repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     feld (feld@bikeshed.party)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 06:25:57 JST feld

     in reply to

     • Cegorach
     @drazraeltod @scy Siemens is one of very few companies in the world that can build Large Power Transformers above a certain size and they have to be custom built.
     
     There's nothing quite like a social activist on the internet boldly advocating for millions of people around the world to not have electricity just to spite a bunch of dead Nazis
   • Embed this notice
     Cegorach (drazraeltod@chaos.social)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 06:25:58 JST Cegorach

     in reply to

     @scy "Should we not be buying VW, BMW, Bayer and Siemens"

     well… yes?

     I mean, it's obviously the moral thing and nothing of worth will be lost?

   • Embed this notice
     scy (scy@chaos.social)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 06:26:00 JST scy

     in reply to

     Well I'm not sure what I expected Vlad's response to be…

     Let's just say that while I think Brendan Eich is bad, I wouldn't have compared him to Hitler.

   • Embed this notice
     scy (scy@chaos.social)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 06:26:01 JST scy

     in reply to

     My #Kagi plan is cancelled, it's no longer the default search engine on any of my devices, and I've written Vlad an email.

     The search results weren't _that_ much better anyway, I mainly chose Kagi because I liked their _approach_ of "no tracking, no ads".

     Well, I'm open to coming back once they've added "no homophobes" to that list.

   • Embed this notice
     scy (scy@chaos.social)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 06:26:02 JST scy

     in reply to

     Since the feedback post has been locked, I'll tell Vlad what I think about this decision via vlad@kagi.com, and I'll stop using Kagi immediately, until this partnership ends.

     Thanks to Veronica for the heads up about this.

     https://mspsocial.net/@vkc/111704531526843982

   • Embed this notice
     scy (scy@chaos.social)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 06:26:04 JST scy

     in reply to

     I'm sorry, but if your company's slogan is "humanize the web", you can't be doing business with someone who dehumanizes others for who they love.

     Vlad argues that Brave's API improves the quality of search results, and "providing the best search in the world is what people pay us to do".

     Maybe. But making sure that my money doesn't go to Brave is way more important to me than slight improvements to search. If that means I'll have to delete my #Kagi account, I will do so, without hesitation.

   • Embed this notice
     feld (feld@bikeshed.party)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 06:31:53 JST feld

     in reply to

     • Cegorach
     @drazraeltod @scy Monopolies are not illegal and are not immoral. What's illegal and immoral are business practices to ensure you retain the monopoly and harm competitors.
     
     Siemens has a monopoly on skill.
   • Embed this notice
     Cegorach (drazraeltod@chaos.social)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 06:31:54 JST Cegorach

     in reply to

     • feld

     @feld @scy so you mean because they have a monopoly in that regard, then that makes it okay?

     yay!

     Then you are obviously correct and we should give that money to siemens. It's the morally correct thing.

   • Embed this notice
     feld (feld@bikeshed.party)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 06:58:14 JST feld

     in reply to

     • Cegorach
     @scy @drazraeltod it's a product that takes like 3 years to design, build, and validate and costs up to several millions of dollars each. This is not a market anyone wants to enter into. The costs to enter are prohibitively expensive and there isn't going to be huge growth demand (though there should be; American LPTs have not been getting replaced and they're near the end of the their service life. We're building small ones in America now, but still not proactively replacing them even though the DoE has been sounding the alarm )
   • Embed this notice
     scy (scy@chaos.social)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 06:58:15 JST scy

     in reply to

     • feld
     • Cegorach

     @feld @drazraeltod Pity that we'll never know whether they'd be having that skill regardless of whether they used tons of forced labor or not.

   • Embed this notice
     Mishari Muqbil (mishari@mastodon.in.th)'s status on Tuesday, 09-Jan-2024 03:59:40 JST Mishari Muqbil

     in reply to

     • Robin Riley (fka Josh)
     • Paul Cantrell
     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
     • Jost :thisisfine: 🔥

     @scy as a non Western person and a minority whose family members has been maimed in a pogrom, I find this to be quite curious. How does one select the people and technology one disassociates with? For example: companies whose owners are homophobes is a ❌, what about the internet, created by the US military that is complicit in genocide? Or VISA/MasterCard payment systems that (seems to) have a problem with recreational cannabis and sex work? Do you use VISA?

     @alemann @josh @inthehands @larsmb

     Paul Cantrell repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 09-Jan-2024 03:59:40 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     • Robin Riley (fka Josh)
     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
     • Mishari Muqbil
     • Jost :thisisfine: 🔥

     @mishari @scy @alemann @josh @larsmb

     Please see post 3 in this thread:
     https://hachyderm.io/@inthehands/111707573907442638

     Kagi’s cardinal sin here is •not• that they made one decision I disagree with; it is their total refusal to even engage with ethical questions. That’s an unsalvageable failing. These are people who aren’t up to the task of the job they’re trying to do. They’ve missed ground-level learning most of us did as teenagers.

   • Embed this notice
     scy (scy@chaos.social)'s status on Tuesday, 09-Jan-2024 03:59:43 JST scy

     in reply to

     • Robin Riley (fka Josh)
     • Paul Cantrell
     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
     • Jost :thisisfine: 🔥

     Thanks @alemann for the heads-up about the thread being reopened, and @josh, @inthehands as well as @larsmb for some inspiration.

   • Embed this notice
     scy (scy@chaos.social)'s status on Tuesday, 09-Jan-2024 03:59:44 JST scy

     in reply to

     Oh look, #Kagi have re-opened that Brave feedback thread, and for whatever reason I spent an hour or so writing about my frustration while also (hopefully) teaching them something about being "apolitical".

     No alt text because it's way too long. It's post #54 on https://kagifeedback.org/d/2808-reconsider-your-partnership-with-brave/54

   • Embed this notice
     scy (scy@chaos.social)'s status on Tuesday, 09-Jan-2024 03:59:45 JST scy

     in reply to

     Me: Okay, #Kagi is obviously not going to back down from this, and there's been enough additional red flags to warrant not only canceling my subscription, but also deleting my account. I definitely won't be coming back.

     Kagi: Well, about that …

   • Embed this notice
     scy (scy@chaos.social)'s status on Tuesday, 09-Jan-2024 03:59:47 JST scy

     in reply to

     And here's another edit, "for clarification". He is now emphasizing that "Use of Brave's API is not an endorsement of Eich or Brave and is a technological decision to provide the best possible service to Kagi's users."

     Well, Vlad, I'm sure you actually believe this. But even if it were the case (which it isn't, because you're normalizing Eich's views by treating him as a normal business partner):

     Your use of Brave's API pays Brave money, which in turn is funding Eich and his politics.

     #Kagi

   • Embed this notice
     scy (scy@chaos.social)'s status on Tuesday, 09-Jan-2024 03:59:48 JST scy

     in reply to

     Another interesting change: He added a warning about possibly locking the thread due to "inflammatory language".

     This warning was added 9 hours ago. The thread has already been locked for four days now. Vlad, what exactly are you trying to do here? Do you really think nobody is going to notice?

     This just looks scummy.

     #Kagi

   • Embed this notice
     scy (scy@chaos.social)'s status on Tuesday, 09-Jan-2024 03:59:49 JST scy

     in reply to

     Interesting. Vlad has edited several of his posts in the (locked) Brave feedback thread.

     The most important change imho is adding this sentence: "Politics finding its way into tech is one of the reason we do not have innovation any more."

     I mean, if that isn't a red flag then I don't know what is.

     #Kagi

   • Embed this notice
     Robin Riley (fka Josh) (josh@josh.tel)'s status on Tuesday, 09-Jan-2024 04:00:08 JST Robin Riley (fka Josh)

     in reply to

     • Paul Cantrell
     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
     • Mishari Muqbil
     • Jost :thisisfine: 🔥

     @mishari

     And when someone runs a service as critical as a search engine, which I am entrusting some of my most sensitive information with, I need to be confident they're capable of navigating political and ethical complexity.

     I don't need them to always share my views, but they better be wise enough to know that there's no such thing as being apolitical.

     @larsmb @scy @alemann @inthehands

   • Embed this notice
     Robin Riley (fka Josh) (josh@josh.tel)'s status on Tuesday, 09-Jan-2024 04:00:09 JST Robin Riley (fka Josh)

     in reply to

     • Paul Cantrell
     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
     • Mishari Muqbil
     • Jost :thisisfine: 🔥

     @mishari IMO @larsmb nailed it.

     I do vote with my feet and wallet to avoid supporting homophobes. I also recognize that it's impossible to avoid engaging with ethically dubious parties – so it comes down to each of us figuring out our priorities and picking our battles.

     In this instance, my breaking point was that Kagi's leadership fails to understand that "keeping politics out" is a political stance, and a naive one at that.

     @scy @alemann @inthehands

     Paul Cantrell repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     Mishari Muqbil (mishari@mastodon.in.th)'s status on Tuesday, 09-Jan-2024 04:00:10 JST Mishari Muqbil

     in reply to

     • Robin Riley (fka Josh)
     • Paul Cantrell
     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
     • Jost :thisisfine: 🔥

     @scy just to be clear : I'm not judging, but I'm trying to understand where the lines are drawn. If it's specifically at homophobic founders and CEOs, that's ok too. @alemann @josh @inthehands @larsmb

   • Embed this notice
     Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷 (larsmb@mastodon.online)'s status on Tuesday, 09-Jan-2024 04:00:48 JST Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷

     in reply to

     • Robin Riley (fka Josh)
     • Paul Cantrell
     • Mishari Muqbil
     • Jost :thisisfine: 🔥

     @mishari I don't think there are any easy answers for reality at large.
     Indeed, in my opinion, the real red flag is that there *is* an easy answer, such as "the only principled decision is for tech to be amoral/apolitic".

     @scy @alemann @josh @inthehands