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1. Embed this notice
   AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈 (andthisismrspeacock@mas.to)'s status on Monday, 18-Dec-2023 04:00:42 JST AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈

   Ok, here is my #Threads thread, which I'm posting in the middle of the night so it doesn't clutter up most of my followers' feeds. Buckle up. 🧵

   • Embed this notice
     AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈 (andthisismrspeacock@mas.to)'s status on Monday, 18-Dec-2023 21:26:53 JST AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈

     in reply to

     Here's why federating with #Threads is dangerous: fiduciary duty.

     A lot of #Fedi #Admins frame federating with Threads as "building community" or "letting the users choose", or "greater connectedness", or "driving Fedi adoption".

     #Meta does not give one shit about any of that.

     Meta cares about deivering value for their shareholders. That is, legally, the *only* thing the Meta board is *allowed* to care about.

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     AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈 (andthisismrspeacock@mas.to)'s status on Monday, 18-Dec-2023 21:26:53 JST AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈

     in reply to

     #Meta cares about delivering shareholder value. For them, that means two things:

     1. Obtaining your personal data to sell, and

     2. More eyeballs in front of more ads.

     That's it. There's no deeper anything. Meta cares about those two things and those two things ONLY. To put effort into anything else would be a breach of the board members' fiduciary duty to the shareholders.

   • Embed this notice
     pettter (pettter@mastodon.acc.umu.se)'s status on Monday, 18-Dec-2023 21:26:53 JST pettter

     in reply to

     @andthisismrspeacock Important caveat here is that Facebook still very much is Zuckerbergs baby - he's still got controlling interest in the company, meaning basically that _he's_ the only fiduciary to whom the board actually answers.

     I'm not saying that this is better or worse, to be clear, but Facebook isn't solely driven by "impersonal market forces" but by the interests and whims of A Specific Guy.

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     AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈 (andthisismrspeacock@mas.to)'s status on Monday, 18-Dec-2023 21:26:54 JST AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈

     in reply to

     Over time, enough people move onto BSC's product that BSC can say, well, we tried, but it's really not worth supporting this open standard anymore for so few users. Product EOL. Bye. (That's the Extinguish part.)

     Again, I work for BSC and we do this ALL THE TIME. We killed off 3 major products in 2023 and I already know one we're killing in 2024.

     EEE is real and if anyone tries to tell you it's not, they're either stupid or lying.

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     AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈 (andthisismrspeacock@mas.to)'s status on Monday, 18-Dec-2023 21:26:54 JST AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈

     in reply to

     Oh but Jim, you say, what does this have to do with #Threads and #Mastodon?

     Well, you can be forgiven for not knowing that, because *nearly all* of the discourse around Threads is about moderation.

     Threads doesn't moderate, it allows hate speech, harassment may not be dealt with, etc. And this is true! But thats not why Threads is dangerous to the Fediverse. In that respect Threads is no more dangerous than any other poorly-moderated server.

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     AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈 (andthisismrspeacock@mas.to)'s status on Monday, 18-Dec-2023 21:26:55 JST AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈

     in reply to

     As many of you know, I work for Big Software Company. Embrace/Extend/Extinguish is something we do. A lot. As in I have watched them kill well over 20 products in 15 years. Probably closer to 50. This strategy is real and software companies absolutely do deploy it, all the time.

     There's a bunch of good articles out there on Embrace/Extend/Extinguish, so if you're curious, I encourage you to google it. If you want the tl;dr version, it's in the next post.

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     AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈 (andthisismrspeacock@mas.to)'s status on Monday, 18-Dec-2023 21:26:55 JST AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈

     in reply to

     EEE is a strategy where a propeietary company Embraces a competing open standard, and partially Extends their own product to work with the open standard.

     The idea is the users of the open standard software will start asking Big Software Company to improve their integration. BSC will then say no, and say if they want function X they must move onto BSC's product.

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     AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈 (andthisismrspeacock@mas.to)'s status on Monday, 18-Dec-2023 21:27:59 JST AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈

     in reply to

     Oh but Jim, you say, I love the Fediverse and #Activitypub and I would never!

     Sure. But a lot of people will.

     In fact, most people will.

     And then, #Meta can say, well, it's not worth it for us to keep supporting ActivityPub for so few users. Integration EOL. Bye.

     If you want to keep talking to your friends, you have to migrate.

     That day will come and that, THAT, is why this is dangerous.

     pettter repeated this.
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     AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈 (andthisismrspeacock@mas.to)'s status on Monday, 18-Dec-2023 21:27:59 JST AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈

     in reply to

     Federating with #Threads is not dangerous because of potential abuse and harassment. That's a real concern, but it's manageable.

     Allowing #Meta to federate with your server is an existential threat to the open social universe. This company wants data and eyeballs, and we are a data and eyeball mine they intend to strip.

     I need all #Fedi #Admins to understand that.

     Tokyo Outsider (337ppm) repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈 (andthisismrspeacock@mas.to)'s status on Monday, 18-Dec-2023 21:28:00 JST AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈

     in reply to

     Because remember fiduciary duty, kids.

     Meta is not delivering shareholder value by letting a bunch of internet weirdos like us interact with Threads content for free.

     They're not delivering shareholder value by letting their users see our posts (and maybe discover an alternative to Meta products!).

     And they are CERTAINLY not delivering shareholder value by not being able to own our data or show us ads.

     So what is Meta even doing here?

   • Embed this notice
     AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈 (andthisismrspeacock@mas.to)'s status on Monday, 18-Dec-2023 21:28:00 JST AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈

     in reply to

     #Meta is doing EEE.

     You will, eventually, be able to follow any Threads user. You will definitely be able to boost their posts onto your server's feed.

     But you will probably never be able to like or comment. And your posts will remain largely invisible to Threads users.

     Meta will embrace and extend into fedi, until enough relationships get made that they're reasonably certain they are the center of gravity.

     Tokyo Outsider (337ppm) repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈 (andthisismrspeacock@mas.to)'s status on Monday, 18-Dec-2023 21:28:00 JST AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈

     in reply to

     And then you will notice any post from a #Threads user has a footer like this:

     "To interact with this post you must migrate your account to Threads. Click here to get started!"

     #Meta #EEE #federation

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     AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈 (andthisismrspeacock@mas.to)'s status on Monday, 18-Dec-2023 21:28:01 JST AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈

     in reply to

     Oh but Jim, you say, I still don't see how federating with Threads is dangerous! Who cares if some Meta content is in my feed? I can always block it!

     Well, yes, you can, but not everyone will.

     In fact, most people won't.

     In fact, a lot of people will be very excited and happy to connect with people they know on Threads!

     And many Masto Admins are falling into the trap of thinking that's a good thing.

     Tokyo Outsider (337ppm) repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     Tero Hänninen (0xtero@ohai.social)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Dec-2023 13:23:57 JST Tero Hänninen

     in reply to

     @andthisismrspeacock Meta is in dire trouble with EU privacy watchdogs. They were already fined for $1.3bn and more is coming.
     
     Fedi provides perfect cover. Now they can claim interoperability and no regulator can say otherwise.
     
     Why would they ruin that?

     If they want, they can mine our data anyway, there's no privacy in the fediverse and we're a tiny drop in a huge sea.

     We're not competitors. We don't even register. We're just a cover story. Alibi.

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     AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈 (andthisismrspeacock@mas.to)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Dec-2023 13:23:58 JST AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈

     in reply to

     Take it from a guy who's shut down many more datacenters than he's built; big software companies deploy exactly this strategy to kill competing ideas all the time.

     I *do* this all the time.

     I don't want to see that happen to us.

     Think about it. 😘🫂

     /🧵

   • Embed this notice
     AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈 (andthisismrspeacock@mas.to)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Dec-2023 13:23:59 JST AndThisIsMrsPeacock 🏳‍🌈

     in reply to

     Now, if you've gotten all the way here and still think #Threads integration is good, well, go for it! I can't stop you.

     But I'm begging you, #Fedi #Admins: be honest with yourselves. This is not about user choice or community building or any of that. And the concerns are not moderation or harassment. This is about #Meta intending to strip mine the Fediverse for new eyeballs and data. That's it.

   • Embed this notice
     Cybarbie (nf3xn@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Dec-2023 13:27:11 JST Cybarbie

     in reply to

     • tsk

     @tasket @andthisismrspeacock I would take people's concerns about instances that they are not members of not domain blocking Threads if they were a. not themselves facebook users b. not employees of facebook.

     That is not to say you do not get to have an opinion. Everyone does. I think allowing people to choose to block themselves and trusting in the collective is far healthier and probably less counterproductive than seeking to impose your own opinion.

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     Cybarbie (nf3xn@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Dec-2023 13:27:14 JST Cybarbie

     in reply to

     @andthisismrspeacock "In fact, most people won't."

     So you want to make sure they can't? Kind of dark no? Who tf are you to decide for them?

     Oh yeah you are:

     "a guy who's shut down many more datacenters than he's built"

     Like you could stop anytime. Was it wrong?

     I had someone the other day complaining about Mastodon not blocking facebook from facebook. Is this the next level? People think they can compartmentalise their morality?

   • Embed this notice
     tsk (tasket@infosec.exchange)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Dec-2023 13:27:14 JST tsk

     in reply to

     • Cybarbie

     @nf3xn @andthisismrspeacock This is a strange way to frame a company like Meta/Facebook. They have a long history and people came here specifically so they could exit the sphere of corporate influence. Trying to sneak it back into our online lives is a threat.

     If they have a history, then there is no reason why entities cannot be ethically blocked before they join.

   • Embed this notice
     grifenpierre (grifenpierre@ludosphere.fr)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Dec-2023 13:29:46 JST grifenpierre

     in reply to

     @andthisismrspeacock there is one thing that I don't get, why meta spend money on a the fediverse with thread to gain only ~2million eye balls. Compared to the mastodont Facebook they own or even Twitter it's too few to be worth anything significant for them.

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     Alex@rtnVFRmedia Suffolk UK (vfrmedia@social.tchncs.de)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Dec-2023 13:29:53 JST Alex@rtnVFRmedia Suffolk UK

     in reply to

     @andthisismrspeacock there is also a real danger Meta, by being able to monitor timelines of larger instances that do not block them, becomes a supergrass (snitch) - feeding back info to feds/government regulators (including authoritarian countries) info of anything they don't like the look of (there are a lot of protestors and activists on here, plus something like 50-70% LGBT+ folk on many instances)

   • Embed this notice
     ClaraBlackInk (clarablackink@writing.exchange)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Dec-2023 13:32:00 JST ClaraBlackInk

     in reply to

     • Dan Stowell

     @danstowell @andthisismrspeacock This is usually where I see the most interesting and compelling discussions on a variety of issues backed with links and wonderful deep dives.

     It's a lot like what I experienced on forums before Facebook and Twitter vacuumed up a lot of those folks.

     I don't think size is the threat here as much as it is a place where a different mode of communicating via social media is being allowed to flourish.

     FB loves social engineering.

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     ClaraBlackInk (clarablackink@writing.exchange)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Dec-2023 13:32:01 JST ClaraBlackInk

     in reply to

     • Dan Stowell

     @danstowell @andthisismrspeacock I would suspect it's partly because there are a lot of anti-capitalism voices who are active here.

     I wouldn't suggest that we're creating any mass movements but a lot of the folks who don't like what Meta or Twitter are exist in this space and it is large enough that it *could* create momentum on a variety of issues because those issues don't typically disappear via an algorithm like they do in other spaces.

     Tokyo Outsider (337ppm) repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     Dan Stowell (danstowell@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Dec-2023 13:32:02 JST Dan Stowell

     in reply to

     @andthisismrspeacock Understood. But what I don't see here is why would they bother even starting? Fedi is small fry to them, no? Wouldn't it be more cost-effective to build other product features? Or maybe you'd suggest it's to eliminate potential competition?

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     Tero Hänninen (0xtero@ohai.social)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Dec-2023 14:38:22 JST Tero Hänninen

     • Tokyo Outsider (337ppm)

     @tokyo_0 @andthisismrspeacock what's the legal risk, if I may ask? Doesn't every fedi instance run the same risk by federating this public post in that case?

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     Tero Hänninen (0xtero@ohai.social)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Dec-2023 15:32:02 JST Tero Hänninen

     • Tokyo Outsider (337ppm)

     @tokyo_0
     Yeah IANAL either, that's why I asked.
     
     I wasn't aware there being consent process when running an instance. The federation is automatic. The Mastodon API is public, it has no authorization at all and the protocol default (without AUTHORIZED_FETCH) is designed so that even suspended instances can still fetch data from the source. Stuff breaks otherwise.

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     Tero Hänninen (0xtero@ohai.social)'s status on Tuesday, 19-Dec-2023 15:33:43 JST Tero Hänninen

     in reply to

     • Tokyo Outsider (337ppm)

     @tokyo_0 You might be right about the AI cases. But none of those have actually been resolved or even been to court yet so we lack precedent (and laws/policy). 2024 might well be the year when commercial entities are banned using public Internet (I doubt it though), but that's still in the future, no one knows the outcome. I doubt Meta counts "setting up a server in fediverse" in that basket of risks anyway.