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   マリオ (Mario Menti) (mario@neko.cat)'s status on Thursday, 16-Nov-2023 01:45:37 JST マリオ (Mario Menti)

   Japanese help please! 😁

   This song is catchy as hell, but there's a line in it that I'm confused by: 生まれも育ちも最終兵器東京のあなたは ここが特別じゃないことくらい 言葉にする発想もない
   I would translate this along the lines of "You, who were born and raised in the ultimate weapon Tokyo, have no way to express in words that this place is not special."

   But then I think it would make more sense if it meant "... have no way to express in words that this place is special", as in "you have no idea how special it is here"?

   These multiple negatives... why is Japanese so hard?

   https://youtu.be/cI-mX4k313A?si=WNjeN7CAunL7YuO1

   • Embed this notice
     マリオ (Mario Menti) (mario@neko.cat)'s status on Thursday, 16-Nov-2023 03:04:44 JST マリオ (Mario Menti)

     in reply to

     • Robert Belton

     @shiawase thanks! I guess I just thought it would make more sense for someone who grew up in Tokyo to not appreciate it's special, while to someone coming from elsewhere it is special, which is why wasn't sure how I understood it (which is more or less the same as you say) was right... I'm probably just confused 😅

   • Embed this notice
     Robert Belton (shiawase@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 16-Nov-2023 03:04:46 JST Robert Belton

     in reply to

     @mario

     I would say … you have no idea how to put into words that here is not so special.
     くらい can indicate evaluation and I’d say low evaluation given the preceding negative.

     https://djtguide.github.io/grammar/dojg/dojgpages/intermediateくらい.html

   • Embed this notice
     マリオ (Mario Menti) (mario@neko.cat)'s status on Thursday, 16-Nov-2023 23:18:42 JST マリオ (Mario Menti)

     in reply to

     • Robert Belton
     • Jan Manus Leupert (マヌス)

     @kojinmanus @shiawase thanks. Yeah, I think this all makes sense, I was just wondering about it because the opposite of this meaning just makes more sense to me personally (you think your birthplace is nothing special, because it's where you've always been, while others getting here later appreciate how special it is - especially true I think of cities). So I think I found it strange simply because I personally can't follow that idea of idealizing your birthplace, and assume almost the opposite 😀.

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     Jan Manus Leupert (マヌス) (kojinmanus@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 16-Nov-2023 23:18:43 JST Jan Manus Leupert (マヌス)

     in reply to

     • Robert Belton

     @shiawase @mario I think it could mean something like:

     "You, who were born and raised in the ultimate weapon Tokyo, wouldn't even think of saying this place (Tokyo) isn't special."

     Some definitions of 発想:
     新しいものごとを考え出すこと; 思いつき; as in "to think of (sth./doing)", "to get the idea")

     And 言葉にする can mean 口に出す or 言う, as in "to say (out loud)".

     Some people tend to idealize their birthplace, and while they might know deep down that it's actually not a special place, they would never say (admit) it.

   • Embed this notice
     Robert Belton (shiawase@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 16-Nov-2023 23:18:44 JST Robert Belton

     in reply to

     @mario
     I could still be missing something. But the negative on 特別 needs to be accounted for. The only positive that I can think of is a sentence ending asking for agreement / conformation ~~じゃない？　Which doesn’t seem to fit.

     I always have to parse it back to the barest sentence and work back up. and look for set patterns with negatives and particles.

   • Embed this notice
     Robert Belton (shiawase@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 16-Nov-2023 23:18:44 JST Robert Belton

     in reply to

     @mario
     The other question I’d have is what ここ refers to. Tokyo? or some other place known to both the singer and the “you”. Is it a place or a place in time? present Tokyo vs. an older Tokyo.
     She seems to be talking to someone non-millennial.