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   mira (frog) (mira@froggie.town)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 04:30:07 JST mira (frog)

   foss purism? do you mean i have principles?

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 04:30:05 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     @mira I mean, I think there is a point where adherence to FOSS principles can become absurd — like Debian refusing to include non-free drivers as an option in their main easy to find installer for many years, thus essentially stopping most people with a modern laptop that doesn't have an ethernet port from even installing it. The mission of FOSS should be to improve people's software freedom as much as possible, and putting artificial limitations on your software to prevent people from doing non-free things not only actually *decreases* their (freedom because people should be free to make mistakes and use crappy software if they have to or choose to), but, in completely preventing people from using such software, it actually makes it so that it's impossible for people to improve their rights even a little bit if it isn't possible for them to be *perfectly* free. It's letting the perfect be the enemy of the good — saying if that if someone isn't willing to go 100% FOSS then they don't get any software freedom. Or, for another example, the Libre version of the Linux kernel refusing to allow microcode updates. You are a computer is already going to be running proprietary micro code and firmware that you have no control over and no idea what the fuck it's doing. So allowing manufacturers to upgrade their microcode or firmware literally isn't changing the situation at all. Even if what you are objecting to is them being able to load new microcode whenever they want in either case you're using proprietary microcode that you know nothing about and have no control over that was loaded without your permission so not allowing any new microcode literally doesn't help with anything and only makes your system less secure.

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     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 04:33:25 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     @mira a lot of FOSS purism that manifests itself as locking down free software and limiting its capabilities honestly has the same Vibe as moralistic rich leftists decrying poor people for buying from unethical but cheap places like Walmart or Amazon, or SWERFs getting angry at sex workers for having to work in an industry where they are exploited, as if that's their fault or their lives will get any better if they were stopped from having that option.

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     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 04:51:56 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     @mira you can't increase someone's freedom by policing them, preventing them from making certain choices when they have to.

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 05:15:51 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     @mira yeah and like trying to maximize everyone's freedom is an excellent goal in software as in everywhere else! But you can't maximize people's freedom by preventing them from making certain choices, if those choices are necessary for them. You can't police people into being free, that's authoritarian logic.

   • Embed this notice
     mira (frog) (mira@froggie.town)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 05:15:53 JST mira (frog)

     in reply to

     • novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     @anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social word. i am foss purist as in ideological goal and trying to live by that in my life as much as i can (accumulating freedom), but i won't police other people for using proprietary stuff

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 05:21:03 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     @mira hell yeah I'll shill for ProtonMail, CryptPad, LibreOffice, Emacs, linux, firefox, old thinkpads, and system76 all day long lol

   • Embed this notice
     mira (frog) (mira@froggie.town)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 05:21:06 JST mira (frog)

     in reply to

     • novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     @anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social exactly. you can try to educate them and that can change their minds, but you can't force them to change (this carries the risk of being seen as an insufferable brat who no one wants to talk to, but i will reserve the freedom to do that for myself)

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 05:27:23 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • ĸurth

     @kurth @mira I mean multiple times I've tried to install deviant on a random junk Ultrabook and found it quite literally impossible to properly do because of the chicken and egg problem of having no ethernet port and no ethernet to USB adapter and a Wi-Fi card that requires proprietary drivers

   • Embed this notice
     ĸurth (kurth@social.tchncs.de)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 05:27:24 JST ĸurth

     in reply to

     • novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     @anarchopunk_girl
     So where exactly is Debian preventing people from certain choices?

     I get your point. But Debian's policy in Main has certain arguments on it's side. Not any of it is 'preventing' anyone from anything.
     People use Mint, Ubuntu, … you name it, and Debian encourages
     such derivatives.

     @mira

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 06:02:38 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • ĸurth

     @kurth @mira just because there are other free software options available doesn't mean that making your free software unusable to someone who isn't willing to commit to going "whole hog" isn't restricting their freedom with respect to your project, that sort of "just go somewhere else" argument isn't particularly convincing to me.

     Also I'm not sure what you mean by comparisons to "extreme leftist" stuff or what you're referring to as "bullshit," are you taking issue with the fact that I'm using analogies that come from a leftist analytical context?

     Also what are (or rather, were) Debian's sound arguments for not having non free firmware installed on the default netinstall iso?

   • Embed this notice
     ĸurth (kurth@social.tchncs.de)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 06:02:40 JST ĸurth

     in reply to

     • novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     @anarchopunk_girl
     Sorry if that came on too harsh. I just find it a little odd when sound argumented policies be instantly drawn into a ideology corner. With extreme leftist comparisons and such bullshit. Let alone, it is FREE SOFTWARE, nobody is forcing it on anyone

     @mira

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 06:50:56 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • ĸurth

     @kurth @mira I'm not taking it for granted I certainly greatly respect all of the work and effort that people are putting in to create and maintain such a huge and long-running and well respected project as deviant but I don't think that means that their choices in policies are above criticism and I'm honestly confused as to why you would think so. Just because it's being provided for free doesn't mean one can't criticize what's being done, the whole idea of beggars can't be choosers is actually an extremely conservative, reactionary idea — it's the core of the idea that since your ancestors or society or whatever provides so much for you you can't possibly critique it or suggest improvements to it.

   • Embed this notice
     ĸurth (kurth@social.tchncs.de)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 06:50:58 JST ĸurth

     in reply to

     • novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     @anarchopunk_girl
     Taking stuff given you for free for granted is _so_ _out_ _of_ _every_ leftist analytical context that i can hardly begin to comprehend what you mean.

     Sorry, again, i get your point. But there are other points.

     @mira

   • Embed this notice
     mira (frog) (mira@froggie.town)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 06:51:13 JST mira (frog)

     in reply to

     • ĸurth
     • novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     @kurth@social.tchncs.de @anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social i was the one who said the word ideology, which is apparently extreme leftist bullshit.
     if you want to use the free beer analogy (why always the beer?), not allowing propriety software would be like not allowing me to put vodka in my free beer, and you bet i will complain about that (extreme leftism)

   • Embed this notice
     ĸurth (kurth@social.tchncs.de)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 06:51:14 JST ĸurth

     in reply to

     • novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     @anarchopunk_girl
     Someone along the thread was dragging it into the ideology and leftist corner. If i added the extremist, i apologize. Nevertheless, it is nothing about that.

     Even if it is. This may sound hard. Even the ones giving Free Software make rules. Just because it's free does'nt mean it comes without rules. If the free beer is'nt of your favourite flavour, complaining about it is pretty awkward

     @mira

     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 06:52:09 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • ĸurth

     @mira @kurth seriously I'm so done with fossbros saying that just because something is provided for free that you simply can't criticize it and should just go off and choose something else or make your own thing if you don't like it, that's so blind honestly and such a reactionary talking point

   • Embed this notice
     mira (frog) (mira@froggie.town)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 06:52:11 JST mira (frog)

     in reply to

     • ĸurth
     • novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     @kurth@social.tchncs.de @anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social it is not like flavour tho nobody was saying ughh why isn't debian like ubuntu

   • Embed this notice
     ĸurth (kurth@social.tchncs.de)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 06:52:15 JST ĸurth

     in reply to

     • novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     @mira
     Nobody is not allowing you to do what you want with your beer.

     Nobody

     Just don't complain about the free beer not having your flavour.

     And don't take anything for granted

     @anarchopunk_girl

   • Embed this notice
     mira (frog) (mira@froggie.town)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 06:54:21 JST mira (frog)

     in reply to

     • ĸurth
     • novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     @anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social @kurth@social.tchncs.de air is free yet i complain about the quality, must be my extreme leftism

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 06:56:09 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • ĸurth

     @mira @kurth Society provided infrastructure and the division of labor and the whole background context of economy and history and culture and yet you criticize it! Strange! How dare you criticize Western Civilization when everything you have and all the rights you have is thanks to it!

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 06:56:58 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • ĸurth

     @mira @kurth I love reductio ad absurdum.

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 06:57:59 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • ĸurth

     @mira @kurth *devolves into a rant about Locke's theory of tacit consent and state infrastructure, and notions of debt to society especially in Proudhon*

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 06:59:06 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • ĸurth

     @mira @kurth I'll make a new post hehe

   • Embed this notice
     mira (frog) (mira@froggie.town)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 06:59:07 JST mira (frog)

     in reply to

     • ĸurth
     • novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     @anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social @kurth@social.tchncs.de i actually am interested in this rant

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Oct-2023 07:49:07 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • ĸurth

     @mira @kurth posted it