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@itzpaquet technological progress including in fields like medicine I absolutely believe, for all the downsides, happen far more rapidly under capitalism.
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@itzpaquet @condret I don't think I am politically motivated here, I just really disagree based on looking at how proprietary vs open projects in software and some other areas play out. investors, money multiplier from banks doing business loans, drive from competition and only one winner, enables big spikes in productivity. The Soviet Union accomplished a lot but it was a contradiction of compromises that internally still resembled market economics in a lot of ways and I think their primary motivator was competition with capitalists. If they won they would still be production powerhouses but I am not sure they would be innovation powerhouses. You look at how communists sometimes argue about capitalism and you can see the open disdain for the form of innovation capitalism takes, how it is wasteful and produces 100 of the same thing. they think there should be one organized effort per goal. I don't think that actually produces the best result. This is just my opinion, I could be totally wrong about this.
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@itzpaquet @Moon but not all research happens in academia
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@condret @Moon the point is the limiting factor is resources not motivation. the history of capitalism is full of shitbags holding back progress in the name of petty greed. colonization set the world back by hundreds of years and then claims to have this magical innovative capitalism thing that "proves them right" about their delusions of racial superiority.
i'm not worried about what comes after capitalism, i'm concerned with killing it proper.
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@condret @Moon
in academia funding is an obstacle to doing the research, not the motivation. you actually can have motivations other than profit motive. wild concept i know.
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@Moon @itzpaquet imo this is only half true, because capitalism only provides incentives for further research, if there already exists a foundation to invest in.
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@condret @Moon capitalism is already a form of neo-feudalism lol
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@itzpaquet @Moon i agree mostly, except that i think we should worry what comes after capitalism. to me it looks like what's coming next is a new form of feudalism.
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@Moon @condret
i can see the utility of markets, there are areas where friendly competition does good work. capital was built through conquest and continues to function primarily through exploitation. i don´t think this is defensible. i also don´t think its fair to equate market economies with the capitalist ownership model.
ansyn unfortunately doesn´t work that well without political assistance. similar to how corpos don´t work without political assistance.
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@itzpaquet @condret I think that's fair, I'm not even saying it's a reason to keep capitalism around, just that I think there are a handful of situations where you can say it gets results faster, at a cost.
My suspicion is I don't think money ever goes away even in the best-case socialism scenario so yeah some kind of market system abides. so it may be possible to get these advantages separated from the exploitation in the current system. Some situation where money still exists but it's got social controls on it.
Sexy Moon
condret :verified: :ancom:
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