myrmepropagandist
Seeing their attempts at indoctrination fail to take hold the indoctrinated can only imagine they have been stymied by some equal and opposite form of indoctrination. That we might be sincere about creating the space for each young person to find their own way, to make up their own mind is impossible from their perspective.
That we wait on the outcomes of experiments and study to determine what is best? Just a lie.
myrmepropagandist
To take one example:
If the research showed spanking were healthy and effective I’d support it. It’d be easy to support. People I have loved and respected swear by it. It makes sense if you don’t think about it too hard. But the data are crystal clear— so I had to adjust. There is no “good whopping” — we know better now.
myrmepropagandist
To take another example:
I didn’t know what a trans person was 20 years ago. The first time I encountered the idea it sounded like something silly and attention getting— why over complicate gender! Over time I realized I’d never considered what it would be like to feel totally at odds with the gender I was assigned. But I also uncovered and healed trauma that came from my own moments not fitting in. I studied. I learned.
I don’t have an agenda. I’m trying to do my best that is all. For real.
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
Not an all-encompassing answer:
The damage done to the child's soul might live on for generations.
A child (<>teenager) cannot run away.
His/her basic sense of trust (Urvertrazen) will often become irreparably damaged, unable to develop the required trust for a stabil long-term relationship.
Mina
I wonder: What's the moral difference between a parent beating a child or a man beating his wife?
Only that in the former case, the dependency is total, whilst in the latter, there are, at least in many cases, escape routes.
Frith
@futurebird @TruthSandwich @darnell @bertwells A good question is 'where does corporal punishment end, and child abuse begin?' and that is pretty subjective, in a world of billions of people. True it is that those who administer a bit of pain out of egoless love, are the polar opposite of those who beat children because they are angry, or to vent their sadistic impulses.
myrmepropagandist
@squig @TruthSandwich @darnell @bertwells I still wouldn’t say they were “wrong” to spank me. It was what they knew and in their hands I was in little danger. (consistent, never in anger, etc.) They did nothing wrong.
But I will learn and do even better.
And many young people are not as lucky as you or I.
Frith
@TruthSandwich @futurebird @darnell @bertwells Nonsense. You snowflakes need to grow up and realize what a savage Hell we are being tortured in, and adapt to reality as it is, not as you wish it were, in your rainbow-drenched illusions.
Truth Sandwich 🥪🇺🇸😷
@futurebird @squig @darnell @bertwells
Boiling it down: if you hit your child, you are an abuser.
myrmepropagandist
@squig @darnell @bertwells If you think not getting to do chores sounds like a reward… reframe your chores! Are you trustworthy enough to operate the vacuum cleaner? This is where my mom had my mind — so being told she thought I was basically so bad at listening that I could do nothing? Well. It was memorable.
“this won’t work on the bad kids I have to deal with”
you’d be shocked. but you need to pay attention to the significance of every action.
myrmepropagandist
I used to think it was possible. But there just isn’t evidence that supports it. What maybe true is that a trusted adult choosing a much more serious punishment one they have not used before helps a child examine their actions with more care. Makes them not want to disappoint their elder to that degree ever again.
eg. “You will stay in and not get to help with *any* of the chores.” was my wake up call at age 8–
Frith
@futurebird @darnell @bertwells Controversial opinion: One proportionate, timely, and judicious smack can cure a hundred follies, and save a thousand vain words.
myrmepropagandist
No child needs spanking. Especially not black children. There are heaps of trauma we have passed down buying into the idea that it’s possible to “spank a kid safe” or buying in to the idea some kids are so bad, so hard-headed nothing else will reach them. But this just isn’t true.
I’m not some wishy washy hippie. I live and teach in the Bronx. I have seen a bad child once or twice.
Darnell Clayton :verified:
@bertwells @futurebird As I mentioned earlier, it depends on the kid. One thing we do not need is kids acting as if their actions do not have consequences (even disturbing & violent actions), otherwise you end up with a monster as an adult.
Some kids only need a chat, others being grounded works. Others need a spanking. Also the situation is key too. Parents need wisdom to determine which corrective measure is best for their child.
Righteous Hazard
@futurebird @darnell From my perspective, the problem with corporeal punishment is not related to whether it is effective or not. Even if it were shown to be the most effective method, it cannot escape a simple fact:
Parents are angry when they a beating their kids. It is nearly impossible not to be. So, whether we wnat to or not we end up teaching a kid to associate anger with violent response.
When you add in the fact that punishment is positively reinforcing for the person doing the punishment under all circumstances (research: Prospect Theory), the situation becomes worse.
We gotta find another way.
myrmepropagandist
@darnell
This is one of the reasons spanking persists as a method. With a constant and loving parent it’s often not harmful. What is important is to recognize that it’s never more effective or needed. Some parents don’t know of any other way or their elders pressure them in to it. But there really is no evidence that it’s more effective than other forms of consistent and caring discipline.
Darnell Clayton :verified:
@futurebird It depends. My late father spanked me when I was a child for engaging in violence or destroying property. He wanted to “nip that in the bud” before I grew up unchecked—which would result in the cops disciplining me with deadly force.
There is not a “one method for all kids” solution, even those in the same house hold.
One dad admitted publicly when it came to his daughter, a talk was all she needed. His son however needed to test the belt quite often! 😂
Martijn Faassen
If a kid is spanked, isn't there a risk they learn violence is a solution?
Mina
I'd say: The risk is high.
And I would go further: If somebody justifies hitting a child with the "child being violent", they are confusing cause and consequence.
At least, this is what I firmly believe.
Darnell Clayton :verified:
@Mina @bertwells @futurebird As I stated before, it depends on the child. Not every child will listen to words. Some do require spankings, others can simply be grounded, while others a simple conversation works.
If a kid is being violent, they will get spanked. This has been a general rule with my extended family, as a violent kid unchecked usually turns into a violent adult. Being spanked by a loving parent is not detrimental.
Mina
Actions must have consequences, related to the deeds, but punishments simply don't do the job. They inspire fear, they make children try to hide their shit better, but they won't make them understand.
I am a parent of two. I know lots and lots of other parents. None (I'm lying: there is one, I know) would even **think** of hitting their children. It's simply not an option.
I can't believe, you were a so much worse person than every single child I know.
Darnell Clayton :verified:
@Mina @bertwells @futurebird You do realize that “simple conversations” will not work with every child. Some kids do need spankings (& I was one of them). My cousins were also spanked, but usually it involved them either being violent towards each other (a big “no no” in my family) or damaging property.
There is no “one method works for every child,” & parents need to adjust accordingly.
Mina
Sorry for jumping in.
I find it absolutely astonishing to have this conversation in 2023.
People are not to be beaten.
Much less: small people with fragile bodies and souls.
This is also not a question to be determined by the parents' judgement. It is child abuse, even if it is "justified" or "not too painful".
Mina
Do you realize that in many countries, beating people¹ is strictly forbidden by law?
I totally believe, this is how it should be.
¹especially young people of whom you are the legal guardian (e.g. your children)
Righteous Hazard
@darnell @Mina @futurebird Like I said before, if my dad hadn’t punished me, I wouldnt have learned. But that is only true *given who we both were*.
Physical violence from a parent or guardian, whether given in love or anger, is wrong. I love my late dad, even tho he did wrong in hitting me, just like he loved me, even tho I did wrong in “deserving” it.
What I owe my dad - for him taking the harm of having an unruly kid and having to beat me - is to learn a better way.
I don’t judge parents or guardians who do what they feel they must. Only an arrogant asshole would judge like that. But I do know some better ways. They are harder, and I recognize that.
KatM
@futurebird Adult child of spankings here and I concur! I've raised 3 kids without spankings and they all turned out great and are successful young adults. There was nothing a spanking ever did for me besides make me feel scared and unloved. Spanking humiliates children. It makes them feel vulnerable to adult anger.
Spanking is abuse perpetrated on a smaller, weaker person by a bigger, stronger person who has lost control of themself and run out of better ideas to modify a child's behavior.
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