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1. Embed this notice
   Derek Powazek 🐐 (fraying@xoxo.zone)'s status on Friday, 01-Sep-2023 03:12:28 JST Derek Powazek 🐐

   The ACLU was wrong then they supported nazis, and the EFF is wrong when they support KF. There are some people you just don't go to bat for, and the mere idea of a "slippery slope" is not more important than actual lives in danger.

   • Embed this notice
     feld (feld@bikeshed.party)'s status on Friday, 01-Sep-2023 03:12:26 JST feld

     in reply to

     • Tim W (admin (and human))
     It's easy to point fingers until the other side gets in power and decides the First Amendment does not cover speech about things they don't like, so they start punishing and censoring those communities.
     
     It doesn't matter that KF is a bunch of crazy racist violence-antagonizing weirdos. If they decide they hate puppies and want to throw everyone in jail that spreads the holy gospel of cute puppies they'll have an easy path to do it if we begin the process of dismantling the core tenants of free speech.
     
     I absolutely abhor the power the internet gives these people, but at the same time I'm grateful for the good it empowers.
     
     🤷
   • Embed this notice
     Tim W (admin (and human)) (tim@union.place)'s status on Friday, 01-Sep-2023 03:12:27 JST Tim W (admin (and human))

     in reply to

     @fraying Huh. Yeah. I have extremely mixed feelings about that.

     On the one hand, I get their slippery slope argument. On the other hand, they acknowledge that KF is "almost universally despised" - that makes it a little unfair for their comparison to an attorney general and reproductive rights. That scenario is also government action, which is explicitly different from what HE is (allegedly) doing here...

     Yeah, I'm gonna go with you on this, EFF is wrong here. Sad.

   • Embed this notice
     feld (feld@bikeshed.party)'s status on Friday, 01-Sep-2023 03:37:38 JST feld

     in reply to

     • Tim W (admin (and human))
     Private corporations have a right to use their First Amendment rights to censor what they "publish". Absolutely.
     
     I was misunderstanding the target here, which I thought was having the government force ISPs to block KF.
     
     ISPs couldn't do anything at all before 2018 or they'd lose their common carrier protections. Those were stripped away, but common carrier protections got enacted in a bunch of states to plug that hole.
     
     Also there are things like states that required ISPs adhere to the common carrier rules or they would withhold public monies and contracts: Colorado, Hawaii, Maine, Montana, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, and Vermont
     
     so like it or not, this is a huuuuuge mess.
     
     https://www.wlf.org/2021/06/22/wlf-legal-pulse/states-and-isp-common-carrier-requirements-a-tale-of-two-courts/#easy-footnote-1-17899
     
     I'm not aware of the litigation being resolved yet, but it's good to know that there are plenty of people out there that want to give up on Net Neutrality because of some hate speech lol
   • Embed this notice
     Tim W (admin (and human)) (tim@union.place)'s status on Friday, 01-Sep-2023 03:37:39 JST Tim W (admin (and human))

     in reply to

     • feld

     @feld @fraying there's a very important difference between what's happening here ((alleged) private action by a private corporation) and what you're talking about (government action).

     Only one of those has anything to do with the First Amendment. It's not this one.

   • Embed this notice
     feld (feld@bikeshed.party)'s status on Friday, 01-Sep-2023 03:44:35 JST feld

     in reply to

     • Tim W (admin (and human))
     honestly I don't even want to bother engaging on this topic if it's not with people over some beers so I'm just gonna nuke my replies.
   • Embed this notice
     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 01-Sep-2023 03:44:41 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • feld
     • Tim W (admin (and human))
     @feld @tim @fraying according to some people, the state HE is in prohibits them from doing what they're doing. Personally I would say somebody wanting communication networks blocking shit is ridiculously shortsighted.
   • Embed this notice
     Derek Powazek 🐐 (fraying@xoxo.zone)'s status on Friday, 01-Sep-2023 04:51:21 JST Derek Powazek 🐐

     in reply to

     Ideas are important.
     People are more important. Always.

   • Embed this notice
     Derek Powazek 🐐 (fraying@xoxo.zone)'s status on Friday, 01-Sep-2023 04:51:22 JST Derek Powazek 🐐

     in reply to

     I support the ACLU and the EFF on most things, but these are examples of why you have to temper your support, even for people and organizations you usually align with.

     Aral Balkan repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     Jens Finkhäuser (jens@social.finkhaeuser.de)'s status on Saturday, 02-Sep-2023 15:14:45 JST Jens Finkhäuser

     in reply to

     @fraying I feel generally speaking, it becomes more obvious in recent years (maybe just to me), how liberalism and anarchism, while both being about personal choice and freedom, differ how one comes from a place of privilege, while the other comes from the opposite end of that spectrum.

     EFF, and also the larger FOSS community, seem to have sprung up around liberal ideals, and are struggling to understand the non-privileged point of view.

   • Embed this notice
     Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Saturday, 02-Sep-2023 15:19:32 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • Jens Finkhäuser

     @jens @fraying This matches my own experience; especially with folks from the US but also here in the EU.

     (Not to mention that a huge chunk of FOSS – the OSS bit – is concerned with building tools for enterprises, not everyday people, and could really care less about issues of human rights or democracy.)