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   Dr. Elizabeth Sawin✨ (bethsawin@spore.social)'s status on Saturday, 19-Aug-2023 15:11:24 JST Dr. Elizabeth Sawin✨

   Signs of collapse and signs of an ecological society emerging coexist right now, in my opinion. The news covers the scary parts, and we need to know, and not look away. But lets not miss the little shoots of a saner more connected ecological-social-economic system either. What's a hint of a life-sustaining society emerging you've seen of late?

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     L'égrégore André ꕭꕬ (mabande@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 22-Aug-2023 20:15:05 JST L'égrégore André ꕭꕬ

     in reply to

     • Noodlemaz
     • squifish
     • Frank O'Dwyer

     @fodwyer @thesquirrelfish @noodlemaz Is that statistics nugget for the segment "delivery workers" or just for people in general? I assume the latter.

     clacke likes this.
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     Frank O'Dwyer (fodwyer@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 22-Aug-2023 20:15:08 JST Frank O'Dwyer

     in reply to

     • Noodlemaz
     • L'égrégore André ꕭꕬ
     • squifish

     @thesquirrelfish @Mabande @noodlemaz the life expectancy of those who use bikes is longer than that of those who do not

     The risk of traffic accidents is more than offset by less risk of cardiovascular diseases and so on (ie the things that most people actually die of)

     Also applies to e-bikes I believe tho I expect less so

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     L'égrégore André ꕭꕬ (mabande@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 22-Aug-2023 20:15:09 JST L'égrégore André ꕭꕬ

     in reply to

     • Noodlemaz
     • squifish

     @thesquirrelfish @noodlemaz The risk of injury when being involved in a low speed car accident is lower for someone in a car than for someone on a bike, so unless the shift to ebikes is uniform, the delivery workers will get on a less protected vehicle in just about equally dangerous traffic.
     Please try to understand what has been said here.

   • Embed this notice
     squifish (thesquirrelfish@sfba.social)'s status on Tuesday, 22-Aug-2023 20:15:09 JST squifish

     in reply to

     • Noodlemaz
     • L'égrégore André ꕭꕬ

     @Mabande @noodlemaz right but there isn't just one kind of risk and there's no guarantee of low speed
     1) there's also the time spent outside of the vehicle - delivery workers are often double parking which means more than double the exposure to getting hit by other faster cars while loading and unloading
     2) the definite mileage increase/damages to the car and financial risk of an accident or crime - if you total your car while doing gig-work that's way worse than losing a bike. The cost itself, then the increase in insurance for a long time if they're still driving - the gig can easily cost more than you made.
     3) the risk of injuring or killing another person, going to jail etc. Nearly impossible on a bike, totally possible in a car, even higher risk for the immigrant and minority populations who are often delivery gig-workers.

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     L'égrégore André ꕭꕬ (mabande@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 22-Aug-2023 20:15:11 JST L'égrégore André ꕭꕬ

     in reply to

     • Noodlemaz
     • squifish

     @thesquirrelfish @noodlemaz A marginally greener planet built on increasing risks for already exploited workers isn't a win.

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     squifish (thesquirrelfish@sfba.social)'s status on Tuesday, 22-Aug-2023 20:15:11 JST squifish

     in reply to

     • Noodlemaz
     • L'égrégore André ꕭꕬ

     @Mabande @noodlemaz it's not increasing risks - cars are the sources of danger on our roads. Every person on a bike instead of in a car makes the roads safer. It does change the risk - it doesn't increase it.

   • Embed this notice
     squifish (thesquirrelfish@sfba.social)'s status on Tuesday, 22-Aug-2023 20:15:12 JST squifish

     in reply to

     • Noodlemaz
     • Frank O'Dwyer

     @noodlemaz @fodwyer @bethsawin but it's better than food delivery in cars. So it's positive change, even if not utopian.

   • Embed this notice
     Noodlemaz (noodlemaz@med-mastodon.com)'s status on Tuesday, 22-Aug-2023 20:15:13 JST Noodlemaz

     in reply to

     • squifish
     • Frank O'Dwyer

     @thesquirrelfish @fodwyer @bethsawin I wasn't saying its the bikes that are a problem! I'm just saying that food delivery on bikes isn't indicative of utopian societal change - because capitalism

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     squifish (thesquirrelfish@sfba.social)'s status on Tuesday, 22-Aug-2023 20:15:14 JST squifish

     in reply to

     • Noodlemaz
     • Frank O'Dwyer

     @noodlemaz @fodwyer @bethsawin that seems to support my claim? It's the delivery services industry and gig-work that's the problem, not the bikes

   • Embed this notice
     squifish (thesquirrelfish@sfba.social)'s status on Tuesday, 22-Aug-2023 20:15:15 JST squifish

     in reply to

     • Noodlemaz
     • Frank O'Dwyer

     @noodlemaz @fodwyer @bethsawin right but how many of the delivery services actually run like that?

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     Noodlemaz (noodlemaz@med-mastodon.com)'s status on Tuesday, 22-Aug-2023 20:15:15 JST Noodlemaz

     in reply to

     • squifish
     • Frank O'Dwyer

     @thesquirrelfish @fodwyer @bethsawin as mentioned, people more expert than me. https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9jaXRhdGlvbnNuZWVkZWQubGlic3luLmNvbS9yc3M/episode/ZTQzM2EwOGQtOWQ1ZS00MjJmLWI5NjItOWM3YWE4ZTViYjhm?ep=14

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     squifish (thesquirrelfish@sfba.social)'s status on Tuesday, 22-Aug-2023 20:15:17 JST squifish

     in reply to

     • Noodlemaz
     • Frank O'Dwyer

     @noodlemaz @fodwyer @bethsawin isn't that also true of all the non-union delivery services regardless of transportation mode?

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     Noodlemaz (noodlemaz@med-mastodon.com)'s status on Tuesday, 22-Aug-2023 20:15:17 JST Noodlemaz

     in reply to

     • squifish
     • Frank O'Dwyer

     @thesquirrelfish @fodwyer @bethsawin not if they have actual employees and don't classify their workers as contractors

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     Noodlemaz (noodlemaz@med-mastodon.com)'s status on Tuesday, 22-Aug-2023 20:15:18 JST Noodlemaz

     in reply to

     • Frank O'Dwyer

     @fodwyer @bethsawin food delivery companies using cyclists isn't some green utopia. They're not paying them properly, they're not compensating them for risks to their health (air quality, road traffic accidents etc) - they're precarious 'gig' workers being taken advantage of.
     Citations Needed pod just had a good ep on this.

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     Frank O'Dwyer (fodwyer@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 22-Aug-2023 20:15:19 JST Frank O'Dwyer

     in reply to

     @bethsawin increasingly common here to see food delivery via ebike and other delivery via e-cargo bike (super hilly here also)

     + solar panels popping up here and there on roofs as it is becoming more affordable

     + The massive shift to working from home and less commuting (not that digital and homes has no footprint but this is still a massive improvement)

     + Huge progress in % of renewables in the normal grid

   • Embed this notice
     Dr. Elizabeth Sawin✨ (bethsawin@spore.social)'s status on Tuesday, 22-Aug-2023 20:15:20 JST Dr. Elizabeth Sawin✨

     in reply to

     I can start - these days when I'm walking on the back roads of my town it's not unusual to be passed by someone on an e-bike. They seem really suited for places like mine where people may live miles up hill from little village centers.