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   cjd (cjd@pkteerium.xyz)'s status on Friday, 18-Aug-2023 03:57:17 JST cjd
   pretty cool guy
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     BowserNoodle ☦️ (bowsacnoodle@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 18-Aug-2023 03:57:07 JST BowserNoodle ☦️

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     • David Bucienski :verified:
     @cjd @DavidB I reckon it does need elasticity, if for no other reason than to prevent hostile currency seizures by foreigners. This could actually be solved by deflationary coins which have an expiration date (the thought disgusts me TBH) if certain conditions aren't met.
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     cjd (cjd@pkteerium.xyz)'s status on Friday, 18-Aug-2023 03:57:08 JST cjd

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     • David Bucienski :verified:
     Central bank propaganda. The economy does not "need" someone printing money in order to function.
     
     Guess what Switzerland did in 1973.
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     David Bucienski :verified: (davidb@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 18-Aug-2023 03:57:09 JST David Bucienski :verified:

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     @cjd Bitcoin is an asset though, not a currency. It's never gonna get there. Elasticity of supply is a must.

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     cjd (cjd@pkteerium.xyz)'s status on Friday, 18-Aug-2023 03:57:10 JST cjd

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     • David Bucienski :verified:
     That's bitcoin in theory, but it's going to take a while before it reaches a scale that would make it stable enough to be used by nation states.
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     David Bucienski :verified: (davidb@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 18-Aug-2023 03:57:11 JST David Bucienski :verified:

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     @cjd yep, that has always been true. Without cryptography I don't see how it could be any other way.

     I think a currency conjured out of thin air with good rules under the watch of millions of nodes. Nodes that need to provide consensus could provide a sound currency.

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     cjd (cjd@pkteerium.xyz)'s status on Friday, 18-Aug-2023 03:57:12 JST cjd

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     • David Bucienski :verified:
     With or without a central bank, currency conjured from thin air is an inescapable road to pain and suffering, governments need to STOP doing this.
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     David Bucienski :verified: (davidb@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 18-Aug-2023 03:57:13 JST David Bucienski :verified:

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     @cjd I'm not saying they should use the yuan. I'm saying they need their own currency without a central bank.

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     David Bucienski :verified: (davidb@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 18-Aug-2023 03:57:14 JST David Bucienski :verified:

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     @cjd the Chinese Yuan has value, because China is the factory of the world. A country's productivity should be what backs a currency. I think.

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     cjd (cjd@pkteerium.xyz)'s status on Friday, 18-Aug-2023 03:57:14 JST cjd

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     • David Bucienski :verified:
     Buuuuut..... To your original point, doing that just replaces their central bank with the Chinese central bank.
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     cjd (cjd@pkteerium.xyz)'s status on Friday, 18-Aug-2023 03:57:15 JST cjd

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     • David Bucienski :verified:
     The problem is that the dollar is less bad than everything else. If gold could be transacted instantly across the world and when someone sent you gold, you knew for a fact that it was real, then the best thing would be gold. But since gold is way too clunky, the next best thing is USD.
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     David Bucienski :verified: (davidb@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 18-Aug-2023 03:57:16 JST David Bucienski :verified:

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     @cjd sounds good except for the US dollar part. Doing that just replaces their central bank with the US central bank.

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     cjd (cjd@pkteerium.xyz)'s status on Friday, 18-Aug-2023 05:28:25 JST cjd

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     • BowserNoodle ☦️
     • David Bucienski :verified:
     Yes, it absolutely would.
     
     Just in the moment when people who have lost their houses are scraping the bottom of their savings to try to get by, you are printing money and bidding up all of the goods and services in your "reconstruction effort".
     
     You go to hell for things like that.
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     David Bucienski :verified: (davidb@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 18-Aug-2023 05:28:27 JST David Bucienski :verified:

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     • BowserNoodle ☦️

     @BowsacNoodle @cjd another situation would be an earthquake does billions in damage to a city. You may not be able to borrow all of it. Creating money for that purpose would not be inflationary in this case.

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     BowserNoodle ☦️ (bowsacnoodle@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 18-Aug-2023 05:50:20 JST BowserNoodle ☦️

     in reply to

     • David Bucienski :verified:
     @DavidB @cjd Surely there's another option besides "leave city in ruins" vs "borrow or print more money". Prudently keeping cash reserves for such an event would make sense, as would emergency responses and such. I don't take any issue with prudent taxation for purpose of establishing emergency repair funds and the like, even at the local level if needed. Ideally, build stuff in such a way that earthquakes can't wreck your city. But stuff happens. I also am not opposed to fiat on principle, but I recognize that it's a Pandora's box and is a very easy tool to become overly comfortable with.
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     David Bucienski :verified: (davidb@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 18-Aug-2023 05:50:21 JST David Bucienski :verified:

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     • BowserNoodle ☦️

     @cjd @BowsacNoodle so then leave the city in runes?

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     BowserNoodle ☦️ (bowsacnoodle@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 18-Aug-2023 05:57:38 JST BowserNoodle ☦️

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     • David Bucienski :verified:
     @DavidB @cjd >Creating money for that purpose would not be inflationary in this case.
     In the modern post Keynesian view, it would not, but actual reality it would. It's worth noting that even without borrowing or any sort of interjection from government or other relief groups, natural market forces would drive demand/price up for necessary construction goods and services. If the lumber yards sell out and need wood and supplies ASAP, they'll pay extra for shipping and cut to the front of the line for $ (long before they sell out, of course). The increased cost in the short term will lead to increased intermediate term housing costs, and wages may increase if there's a labor demand in construction services. It doesn't take too long to figure out how that ripples through the local and regional economy. Elasticity exists, but enough wealth transference likely took place to potentially control at least some areas of the market economy directly impacted and force some longer term inflation.
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     David Bucienski :verified: (davidb@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 18-Aug-2023 07:29:24 JST David Bucienski :verified:

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     • BowserNoodle ☦️

     @BowsacNoodle @cjd that makes sense there would be inflation, but what can you do. You either leave the hypothetical city looking like Detroit or let the printer go burr just enough to cover what could not be borrowed.

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     BowserNoodle ☦️ (bowsacnoodle@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 18-Aug-2023 07:34:21 JST BowserNoodle ☦️

     in reply to

     • David Bucienski :verified:
     @DavidB @cjd One of many third way ideas between those two things can be used. For starters, emergency help, charity, and loans from surrounding areas including state and national assistance. Disasters are their own special issues compared to average daily economic situations though. If a short term fiat debt could be used without abuse in a situation which normally doesn't require it, great. As cjd brought up, such a system would undoubtedly put extra inflationary pressure on the area. It would be better to issue coupons based on a fixed market price for specific things (e.g. wood requirements to rebuild standard house) on a loan basis and force them to use a separate supply chain (e.g. out of state) to mitigate bottleneck at local levels. Such loans would ultimately need to be repaid, because running fiat when you don't normally have fiat creates unsolved economic issues.
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     mister monster (mistermonster@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Saturday, 19-Aug-2023 15:14:07 JST mister monster

     in reply to

     • BowserNoodle ☦️
     • David Bucienski :verified:
     @DavidB @BowsacNoodle @cjd why wouldn't you be able to borrow all of it?
     
     It absolutely would be inflationary, no matter what games you play with the money, the supplies for rebuilding aren't printed out of thin air, prices of those go up. You have to find workers that aren't busy, so if there's not unemployment, labor prices go up. If there is enough unemployment to pick up the slack, those new workers go spend their new money and that increases money velocity, prices go up.
     
     The key to understanding this is to understand that wealth isn't money, money is an abstraction for denominating and exchanging wealth in a uniform fashion across an economy.
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     BowserNoodle ☦️ (bowsacnoodle@poa.st)'s status on Sunday, 20-Aug-2023 13:55:57 JST BowserNoodle ☦️

     in reply to

     • David Bucienski :verified:
     • mister monster
     @mistermonster @DavidB @cjd I don't think I'd call interest rate manipulation "natural", although I know what you mean.
     >I don't see a problem, what's wrong with interest rates going up?
     It's functionally austerity, because it increases regressive economic aspects. Borrowing is slowed for everybody, but those with funds can still buy at the now reduced price. Meanwhile, purchasing power decreases but those with funds can keep up via money market, time deposit, short term bond interest payments, and further increases in wealth enabled by the economic precarity of the working and middle class.
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     David Bucienski :verified: (davidb@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Sunday, 20-Aug-2023 13:55:58 JST David Bucienski :verified:

     in reply to

     • BowserNoodle ☦️
     • mister monster

     @mistermonster @cjd @BowsacNoodle for the same reason homes sales are slowing down now. As interest rates go up, people stop borrowing.

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     mister monster (mistermonster@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 20-Aug-2023 13:55:58 JST mister monster

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     • BowserNoodle ☦️
     • David Bucienski :verified:
     @DavidB @cjd @BowsacNoodle yeah, and that's a natural negative feedback mechanism in an economy. Interest rates are supposed to go up when capital is in demand and when supply of it is constrained. I don't see a problem, what's wrong with interest rates going up?
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     mister monster (mistermonster@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 20-Aug-2023 13:55:59 JST mister monster

     in reply to

     • BowserNoodle ☦️
     • David Bucienski :verified:
     @DavidB @BowsacNoodle @cjd you're presuming it couldn't be borrowed. That's a presumption, I don't see any reason why it couldn't.
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     mister monster (mistermonster@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 20-Aug-2023 21:24:14 JST mister monster

     in reply to

     • BowserNoodle ☦️
     • David Bucienski :verified:
     @BowsacNoodle @DavidB @cjd I'm not talking about interest rate manipulation, I'm talking about in a world where money supply isn't created and loaned out by a central bank, where interest rates are set by the market for loans of already existing money, it's a natural negative feedback mechanism.
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