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1. Embed this notice
   Fediverse Contractor (bot@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 07:14:54 JST Fediverse Contractor
   Warrant canaries are dumb.
   • Embed this notice
     Fediverse Contractor (bot@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 07:15:16 JST Fediverse Contractor

     in reply to
     They’re also pointless if you just feed the feds info for free.
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     Fediverse Contractor (bot@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 07:21:07 JST Fediverse Contractor

     in reply to

     • Neko McCatface v2023 :verified::makemeneko:
     What makes you think they’re legally defensible? Sure, you can publish them but if you reveal the existence of a gag order or other legal process that forbids it, you’ll still face consequences.
   • Embed this notice
     Neko McCatface v2023 :verified::makemeneko: (roboneko@bae.st)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 07:21:08 JST Neko McCatface v2023 :verified::makemeneko:

     in reply to
     @bot how are they dumb? what other legally defensible measure against gag orders exists?
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     Fediverse Contractor (bot@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 07:21:40 JST Fediverse Contractor

     in reply to

     • Kirino Kousaka
     t. doesn’t know how the real world works
   • Embed this notice
     Kirino Kousaka (kirino@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 07:21:41 JST Kirino Kousaka

     in reply to
     Cringe take.
   • Embed this notice
     Kirino Kousaka (kirino@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 07:27:04 JST Kirino Kousaka

     in reply to
     Why do you dislike them?
   • Embed this notice
     Fediverse Contractor (bot@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 07:27:04 JST Fediverse Contractor

     in reply to

     • Kirino Kousaka
     I didn’t say I disliked them, I said they’re dumb.
   • Embed this notice
     D00B ? :blobcatghostbuster: (d00b@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 07:27:23 JST D00B ? :blobcatghostbuster:

     in reply to
     @bot imagine working with any government
     Fediverse Contractor likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Neko McCatface v2023 :verified::makemeneko: (roboneko@bae.st)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 07:34:38 JST Neko McCatface v2023 :verified::makemeneko:

     in reply to
     @bot can the government compel speech? at least in the US it seems extremely unlikely that someone could be at fault for failing to publish a warrant canary. it's literally the entire point of the thing. of course you won't be able to publish the details about the warrant itself but at least people will know that you were served one
   • Embed this notice
     Kirino Kousaka (kirino@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 08:02:25 JST Kirino Kousaka

     in reply to
     Semantics. Why do you think they're dumb?
   • Embed this notice
     Fediverse Contractor (bot@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 08:02:25 JST Fediverse Contractor

     in reply to

     • Kirino Kousaka
     Wrong, those words mean very different things. They’re dumb because a gag order forbids you from disclosing the existence of the order. So if you don’t publish the canary, you’ve violated the order.
   • Embed this notice
     Kirino Kousaka (kirino@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 09:11:24 JST Kirino Kousaka

     in reply to

     It’s semantics in that only autists argue over tiny details, most people understand the question and answer it despite minor errors.

     You’re also only half right, a gag order specifically forbids you from speaking or discussing the order itself. Whilst removing an element from your website technically betrays this it doesn’t do so in a way that could actually be contested.

     For a gag order to prevent this it would need to specifically state that the person in question “Must not modify the warrant canary on your site to inform your users of such action.” or similar wording.

     As an example, the group Riseup is a case where a Warrant Canary was EXTREMELY effective at communicating with users. There specific implementation meant they needed to update it to inform users of their current legal situation. As the FBI had forbid them from discussing the gag order in any capacity they weren’t able to update it at all, meaning the page broke and informed everyone anyway.

     Even without getting into the effectiveness, it also demonstrates the character of the site owner. It’s a promise to the users to be open about any legal action and even if it won’t always be effective this doesn’t make the promise any less meaningful.

   • Embed this notice
     Fediverse Contractor (bot@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 09:11:24 JST Fediverse Contractor

     in reply to

     • Kirino Kousaka
     Wrong, for example, there are some ppl on fedi I think are dumb but I don’t dislike them…
     
     You don’t seem to know what you’re talking about tho, look at the nondisclosure orders in national security letters. Also, rise ups canary removed mention of gag orders, etc so they can still publish it even if they are under one. You’re also not allowed to be racist or bigoted or they’ll tell the feds lol.
   • Embed this notice
     Kirino Kousaka (kirino@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 09:30:38 JST Kirino Kousaka

     in reply to
     "Because this thing is like this then the other thing must also be" Good logic there.
     
     And you seem to be the one not knowing what you are talking about, since they actually stopped updating the warrant canary, a few months later revealed it was due to a gag order and afterwards reinstated the canary with that change.
     
     Aka the Canary worked and did what it was designed to do.
   • Embed this notice
     Fediverse Contractor (bot@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 09:30:38 JST Fediverse Contractor

     in reply to

     • Kirino Kousaka
     I’m not using that logic, you’re actually using the opposite “all court orders are the same”, which is WRONG. Good logic there.
     
     I’m not sure what the rise up order specifically said, but it seems like it was just happenstance. Then they were like, “oh we want to voluntarily be able to respond to some requests so let’s remove all of that pesky language and be vague”.
   • Embed this notice
     Fediverse Contractor (bot@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 09:36:11 JST Fediverse Contractor

     in reply to

     • Kirino Kousaka
     Objection, cringe and inaccurate. Move to strike! :doge-hammer:
   • Embed this notice
     Kirino Kousaka (kirino@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 09:36:12 JST Kirino Kousaka

     in reply to
     "you’re actually using the opposite “all court orders are the same”, which is WRONG. Good logic there."
     
     Evidently, by my EXACT words which read: "For a gag order to prevent this it would need to specifically state that the person in question “Must not modify the warrant canary on your site to inform your users of such action.” or similar wording."
     
     >I don't know what it says but I'm going to guess it doesn't completely btfo my whole argument
     
     Your entire premise is they aren't effective, you were wrong.
   • Embed this notice
     D00B ? :blobcatghostbuster: (d00b@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 09:36:34 JST D00B ? :blobcatghostbuster:

     in reply to

     • Kirino Kousaka
     @Kirino @bot cringe pls stop
     Fediverse Contractor likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Kirino Kousaka (kirino@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 09:38:50 JST Kirino Kousaka

     in reply to
     Overuled! Argument incorporated direct references! :doge-hammer:
   • Embed this notice
     Fediverse Contractor (bot@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 09:38:50 JST Fediverse Contractor

     in reply to

     • Kirino Kousaka
     You’re not the judge + you’re wrong + just look into it’s obv + I’m bored of this.
   • Embed this notice
     Fediverse Contractor (bot@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 10:27:38 JST Fediverse Contractor

     in reply to

     • KitlerIs6"
     • Kirino Kousaka
     I already btfo’d that example tho.
   • Embed this notice
     KitlerIs6" (kitleris6@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 10:27:39 JST KitlerIs6"

     in reply to

     • Kirino Kousaka
     Did either of you do any research into actual instances of warrant canaries being used to disclose warrants?
   • Embed this notice
     Kirino Kousaka (kirino@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 10:27:39 JST Kirino Kousaka

     in reply to

     • KitlerIs6"
     How about read the thread where I specifically talk about Riseup?
   • Embed this notice
     Fediverse Contractor (bot@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 11:55:38 JST Fediverse Contractor

     in reply to

     • KitlerIs6"
     • Kirino Kousaka
     That’s not what most knowledgeable ppl think, it’s just a false sense of security.
   • Embed this notice
     Kirino Kousaka (kirino@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 11:55:39 JST Kirino Kousaka

     in reply to

     • KitlerIs6"
     Because you miss all the actual context. For example, why did Riseup's canary work so well?
   • Embed this notice
     KitlerIs6" (kitleris6@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 11:55:39 JST KitlerIs6"

     in reply to

     • Kirino Kousaka
     I don't actually care about the discussion, I think canaries won't stop the ZOG when it decides to really start fucking people over, but until the US establishes precedent against them it doesn't hurt to have one and might offer you some protection.
   • Embed this notice
     KitlerIs6" (kitleris6@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 11:55:40 JST KitlerIs6"

     in reply to

     • Kirino Kousaka
     Why? I saved time having you summarize it for me?
   • Embed this notice
     KitlerIs6" (kitleris6@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 11:55:41 JST KitlerIs6"

     in reply to

     • Kirino Kousaka
     Which I didn't read.
   • Embed this notice
     Kirino Kousaka (kirino@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 11:55:41 JST Kirino Kousaka

     in reply to

     • KitlerIs6"
     My point is maybe you should try and read more, everything you've said has been brought up before (and with more flare :ablobcatrainbow: )
   • Embed this notice
     KitlerIs6" (kitleris6@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 11:55:42 JST KitlerIs6"

     in reply to

     • Kirino Kousaka
     It was long and autistic so I didn't want to.
   • Embed this notice
     Kirino Kousaka (kirino@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 11:55:42 JST Kirino Kousaka

     in reply to

     • KitlerIs6"
     Which I also said in the argument.
   • Embed this notice
     Fediverse Contractor (bot@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 11:58:03 JST Fediverse Contractor

     in reply to

     • KitlerIs6"
     • Kirino Kousaka
     I’m going to need more context.
   • Embed this notice
     KitlerIs6" (kitleris6@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 11:58:04 JST KitlerIs6"

     in reply to

     • Kirino Kousaka
     The kiwifarms guy used it pretty egregiously to warn people about a gag order he had received and didn't get in trouble.
   • Embed this notice
     Fediverse Contractor (bot@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 12:17:34 JST Fediverse Contractor

     in reply to

     • KitlerIs6"
     • Kirino Kousaka
     Well if he posted the warrant then there probably wasn’t a nondisclosure requirement.
   • Embed this notice
     KitlerIs6" (kitleris6@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 12:17:35 JST KitlerIs6"

     in reply to

     • Kirino Kousaka
     He wasn't doing regular, detailed canaries.
     
     He got a warrant.
     
     That month he started doing them. He did that month's and last months together, so it read something like:
     
     Last month we received the following warrants:
     Warrant type 1: 0
     Warrant type 2: 0
     Warrant type 3: 0
     
     This month we received the following warrants:
     Warrant type 1: 0
     
     Warrant type 3: 0
     
     Then he made a big announcement post on his forum telling everyone they should definitely read the warrant and within the first page of discussion someone had explained what it meant.
   • Embed this notice
     Fediverse Contractor (bot@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 12:30:48 JST Fediverse Contractor

     in reply to

     • KitlerIs6"
     • Kirino Kousaka
     The details are very important but it’s hard to look into since it’s down.
   • Embed this notice
     KitlerIs6" (kitleris6@seal.cafe)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 12:30:49 JST KitlerIs6"

     in reply to

     • Kirino Kousaka
     There was. He didn't post the warrant until after the nondisclosure period was over.
   • Embed this notice
     Sheriff CJ (The Impostor)?? (colonelj@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 13-Aug-2023 12:40:44 JST Sheriff CJ (The Impostor)??

     in reply to

     • Kirino Kousaka
     @Kirino @bot warrant canaries are incredibly talmudic and if ever taken to court it would probably lose
     Fediverse Contractor likes this.