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1. Embed this notice
   Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Tuesday, 08-Aug-2023 07:43:16 JST Strypey

   I notice more and more places in Aotearoa refusing to accept cash for payments, despite the fact that it's legal tender. If this isn't already illegal, it ought to be. If it is, those laws need to be enforced.

   Some people prefer to keep some (or all) of our transactions private, rather than sharing data about them with banks, payment providers, and anyone else they share it with or sell it to. We have that right.

   #Aotearoa #NZ #privacy #payments #cash #LegalTender

   • Embed this notice
     feld (feld@bikeshed.party)'s status on Tuesday, 08-Aug-2023 07:43:08 JST feld

     in reply to

     • IXI
     • Dave J
     In Richard Turrin's Cashless he covers this about China's pivot away from cash. It works on cheap $25 feature phones so anyone can use them, and as far as the reason to use QR codes -- super accessible, no technology required other than a printer so anyone and any business can easily go cashless
   • Embed this notice
     Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Tuesday, 08-Aug-2023 07:43:09 JST Strypey

     in reply to

     • IXI
     • Dave J

     @davej
     > a homeless man asked us for change... He couldn’t choose to exclude himself from the cash economy

     Indeed. in China I did see people begging with their AliPay or WeChatPay QRcode printed on a piece of card. But maybe that speaks to their where poverty line is; high enough that even the poorest can still afford to maintain a smartphone and mobile data.

     @ixi

   • Embed this notice
     Dave J (davej@dice.camp)'s status on Tuesday, 08-Aug-2023 07:43:15 JST Dave J

     in reply to

     • IXI

     @strypey @ixi After COVID lockdowns lifted, my wife and I ventured into Brisbane for a day out on the ferry. Like most Australians at the time we’d spent weeks or months discouraged from handling cash. (I still rarely carry it.)

     Shortly after we debarked, a homeless man asked us for change. I watched him beg dozens of people as we waited for a bus, none of whom had anything to give. It was heartbreaking.

     He couldn’t choose to exclude himself from the cash economy.

   • Embed this notice
     feld (feld@bikeshed.party)'s status on Tuesday, 08-Aug-2023 09:02:12 JST feld

     in reply to

     • IXI
     • Dave J
     > Not sure about AliPay. But for WeChatPay I'm pretty sure you need WeChat. Which is a monster of an app, requiring a reasonably late model touchscreen device.
     
     Not originally (2013-2014)
     
     > You definitely need a working internet connection to make a payment.
     
     Generally, yes, but not with their new CBDC they're rolling out. It broadcasts transactions to nearby devices and when a device gets network access it broadcasts them on your behalf (of course duplicates are ignored)
   • Embed this notice
     Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Tuesday, 08-Aug-2023 09:02:14 JST Strypey

     in reply to

     • feld
     • IXI
     • Dave J

     @feld
     > It works on cheap $25 feature phones so anyone can use them

     Not sure about AliPay. But for WeChatPay I'm pretty sure you need WeChat. Which is a monster of an app, requiring a reasonably late model touchscreen device.

     You definitely need a working internet connection to make a payment. Which generally means mobile data. Although the telecoms there are all 100% state-owned, and fairly cheap (100% surveiled for the CCP of course).

     @davej @ixi

   • Embed this notice
     feld (feld@bikeshed.party)'s status on Tuesday, 08-Aug-2023 09:40:57 JST feld

     in reply to

     • IXI
     • Dave J
     > Did WeChat have the Pay function that long ago?
     
     Yes. 2013/2014 were when WeChat and Alibaba were granted banking licenses (to compete with the banks, which pissed them off)
   • Embed this notice
     Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Tuesday, 08-Aug-2023 09:40:59 JST Strypey

     in reply to

     • feld
     • IXI
     • Dave J

     @feld
     > Not originally (2013-2014)

     Did WeChat have the Pay function that long ago?

     > Generally, yes, but not with their new CBDC they're rolling out

     Intriguing. It being China, I bet it will come with all sorts of surveillance built in. Which is a shame, because all the anti-CBDC conspiracy theorists will jump on that as proof that this is inherent to all CBDCs. Which it definitely isn't.

     @davej @ixi

   • Embed this notice
     feld (feld@bikeshed.party)'s status on Tuesday, 08-Aug-2023 12:05:33 JST feld

     in reply to

     • IXI
     • Dave J
     It's all covered in the book. They got *banking licenses*. They are legit banks, not just payment tech companies. The primary reason the Chinese keep accounts at the brick and mortar banks is for depositing and withdrawing cash, otherwise they transfer it to their WeChat/AliPay accounts.
     
     It's been a successful strategy to rein in the banks and push their payments tech forward to boost their economy. They rolled out cell towers to even the remote villages, had cheap feature phones that could do the payments, and suddenly banked millions of unbanked Chinese very quickly.
     
     People in remote villages now had access to sell their goods online. The velocity of money exploded. They did like $42T USD worth of payments in their economy in one year. It blows away America's circular economy.
     
     The banks lost access to billions in transaction fees per year and they lost the metadata on each transaction. They took away multiple revenue streams from the banks through this. This is the iron fist slapping down the banks who were getting too powerful and also manipulating their Big Tech into doing their bidding. It gave the government better real-time access to transaction data in exchange for a nice chunk of profit until they roll out the CBDC widely.
     
     Go pick up a copy it's really enlightening.
   • Embed this notice
     Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Tuesday, 08-Aug-2023 12:05:34 JST Strypey

     in reply to

     • feld
     • IXI
     • Dave J

     @feld
     > to compete with the bank

     Well, not exactly. From what I remember, you have to connect both apps to a bank account to use them. Imagine an internet banking app you can use with any bank account, from any bank. If it wasn't for the fact that in this case they're proprietary apps owned by a corporate DataFarm (TenCent is the Meta of China, AliBaba is the AmaSin), that would be something I'd actually want in Aotearoa!

     @davej @ixi

   • Embed this notice
     feld (feld@bikeshed.party)'s status on Tuesday, 08-Aug-2023 23:58:18 JST feld

     in reply to

     • IXI
     • Dave J
     Yes, this definitely a huge win for the CCP -- they grew the economy and increased their surveillance capabilities on citizens. Very interesting how they pulled it off because to the average Chinese citizen it probably seems like a positive change.
   • Embed this notice
     Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Tuesday, 08-Aug-2023 23:58:19 JST Strypey

     in reply to

     • feld
     • IXI
     • Dave J

     @feld
     > The banks lost access to billions in transaction fees per year and they lost the metadata on each transaction.

     ... and TenCent and AliBaba got it all instead, and the CCP of course has an open backdoor into their systems, as a condition of letting them stay in business in China. So they have all that metadata too.

     > the iron fist slapping down the banks who were getting too powerful and also manipulating their Big Tech into doing their bidding

     Only the CCP can do that!

     @davej @ixi

   • Embed this notice
     Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Tuesday, 08-Aug-2023 23:58:21 JST Strypey

     in reply to

     • feld
     • IXI
     • Dave J

     @feld
     > The primary reason the Chinese keep accounts at the brick and mortar banks is for depositing and withdrawing cash

     Also for receiving your pay. AFAIK Chinese employers always pay into bank accounts, not AP or WCP wallets. Unless it's under the table work, in which case they pay cash. Again, I'm commenting on my experiences there.

     @davej @ixi

   • Embed this notice
     Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Wednesday, 09-Aug-2023 10:58:32 JST Strypey

     in reply to

     • feld
     • IXI
     • Dave J

     @feld
     > to the average Chinese citizen it probably seems like a positive change

     So as long as the CCP seems to improving their standard of living, they get on with their own jobs, and trust the CCP to get on with the governing. In my 2 years living there I noticed that Chinese people place a very high value on social harmony. We knew one person who constantly badmouthed anti-CCP (and praised Agent Orange, go figure), but she was still in favour of the Social Credit system 🤷♂️

     @davej @ixi

     feld likes this.