Gwen the Trans Balrog
Ah, that trans girl activity where I get bored and wonder whether simply replacing my penis with a vagina would be enough to make the dyspho go away. How little could I get away with? Could I boymode it forever if I just had the right parts downstairs?
I'm so used to the dysmorphia and the dysphoria though. It barely hurts anymore. And I'm old and married so it's not like anyone is going to get a gander at my junk.
Kit Rhett Aultman
@Ghostynn @Terra @YouShallNotPass @Dani @AlwaysAutumn So, I too read the idea of "gender trauma" and there's a part of me that does resonate with it more than "dysphoria", but when I've used it around Fedi, others have felt not-so-great about it because it's still kinda medicalizing and they worry that it makes it sound like being trans is a trauma response and could thus be "treated". I'm curious to hear more from y'all.
Ghost isn't in the shell 🏳️⚧️
@Terra @YouShallNotPass @Dani @AlwaysAutumn I kinda like the "gender trauma" phrasing and concept.
Parallel perhaps is my own understanding and acceptance of my bottom dysphoria. I knew it was there, but didn't think it was a big deal. But the "I lived bitch" photos always give me a big emotion wave. Threads about surgery are euphoric bombshells. About a year ago I stopped wearing pants, not really consciously. As time went by I tried wearing pants but couldn't, opting for leggings or dresses or skirts every day. A few weeks ago was Denim Day. I forced myself to wear my skinny jeans I've always gotten compliments on before. I've never been more aware of how uncomfortable I was. A friend who had grs that I expressed my discomfort to knew exactly what I was going through. Her simple, "the first time I put on jeans after grs was heaven" hit me like a truck. Couldn't deny it any more. Scheduling consults now... and suddenly I have a future again.
Terra: Chaos Lesbian
@YouShallNotPass @Dani @AlwaysAutumn given what CJ Bellwether said, which seems more and more accurate the more I think about it, it's not "gender dysphoria" but "gender trauma," and my therapist says our minds deal with trauma at the pace it can be dealt with.
Dani Tseng
@YouShallNotPass Maybe... but just feels like the mind work is going at a snails pace a lot of the time.
Most of the time.
Gwen the Trans Balrog
@Dani @Terra @AlwaysAutumn
You and me both, sister. I figure that's because if we just flipped a switch and suddenly experienced it all at once, it would fry our brains.
Dani Tseng
@Terra Sigh... I'm figuring out the "how much of my life is dominated by dysphoria" bit but picking at the edges of it are... well, having slow going.
Terra: Chaos Lesbian
@AlwaysAutumn @YouShallNotPass Totally. I said that because I know personally, for about the first 6-8 months following the start of HRT I felt my dysphoria was not that bad, but as layers of self repression and deception were removed, I realized (and am still realizing to this day) how much of my life was dominated by dysphoria. It's like my life was a script written by someone else and I thought it was me but it wasn't. So I was projecting that.
Miss Autumn Selena (She/Her)
@YouShallNotPass @Terra Not one of us has the same experiences, but we're all still valid
Gwen the Trans Balrog
@Terra
And yet, stupidly, I don't experience the dysphoria anywhere near as hard as I think I should to be valid.
I have experienced euphoria. I know there's more to life than this. It's just a lot.
Thank you for being so supportive of your trans siblings. It means a lot to me, for one.
Terra: Chaos Lesbian
@YouShallNotPass This sounds like a description from someone who hasn't yet experienced what life can be like outside the cloud of dysphoria.
Kit Rhett Aultman
@YouShallNotPass @Ghostynn @Terra @Dani @AlwaysAutumn I appreciate your perspective, and for me, dysphoria has also always been an ache, a wall of static and noise, and, later in life, disproportionate levels of regret. You helped me find the main vein, which is that I also want to normalize being trans and shift the burden of blame to the world that didn't make a place for me.
Gwen the Trans Balrog
@roadriverrail @Ghostynn @Terra @Dani @AlwaysAutumn
And regardless of whether it's big and dramatic or not, I'm sure I have trauma responses to it.
So I guess I don't agree. I think trauma can be a useful framing. I haven't really unpacked mine yet, but I know it's there, all mixed up with other stuff.
As far as medicalizing it, dysphoria sounds much more like a mental illness then trauma to me. I respect those who feel differently though. Whatever works for them is what they should use.
Gwen the Trans Balrog
@roadriverrail @Ghostynn @Terra @Dani @AlwaysAutumn
I should preface this by saying that my mental illnesses aren't big and dramatic. They're just nonstop ache. And that's the way I experience dysphoria. I don't get smacked in the face with it, it just aches. So trauma has always felt a little big and dramatic for me. I like the idea though, that it's not something wrong with me, but with the world. That's important to internalize. There's nothing wrong with being trans.
Kit Rhett Aultman
@YouShallNotPass @Ghostynn @Terra @Dani @AlwaysAutumn I think one difference I can see is that dysphoria is a symptom and trauma is a cause, perhaps? And there's this general presumption that if you heal the trauma you heal the condition, so it sort of still has a vibe like there's a psychotherapeutic alternative to transition? I don't know... I'm groping at this, and I appreciate your thoughtfulness in sharing.
Kit Rhett Aultman
@Terra @YouShallNotPass @Ghostynn @Dani @AlwaysAutumn just to clarify, I was saying that "dysphoria" is a word that describes symptoms while "trauma" is a word that usually describes a cause of symptoms or a condition. I didn't mean for the two to be directly connected as you stated it above and I apologize for miscommunicating.
Terra: Chaos Lesbian
Trauma is not a cause of dysphoria. Dysphoria IS a manifestation of trauma. And the cause of trauma is not being Trans! The cause of trauma is constantly being emotionally and sometimes physically beaten because of who we are. And also having a body that in some ways is emphatically incorrect–and having society blame and demonize US for it.
You can't heal the trauma without gender-affirming care. Bigots know this.
Kit Rhett Aultman
@Terra @YouShallNotPass @Ghostynn @Dani @AlwaysAutumn And believe me that I am aware of the traumas of being trans. I ducked a lot of the worst ones through a mixture of denial, repression, and quiet fear.
Kit Rhett Aultman
@Terra @YouShallNotPass @Ghostynn @Dani @AlwaysAutumn I know what kind of day you've had and I know you're not aiming at me. Be passionate. It's fine. I'm trying new words and ideas on for size, and with cause, because there's a lot about the current narrative that defines transness by dysphoria that I dislike.
Terra: Chaos Lesbian
Not yelling at you, babe. I'm yelling at the bigots. Sorry.
Kit Rhett Aultman
@Terra @Ghostynn @YouShallNotPass @Dani @AlwaysAutumn I get what you're saying, but for me this isn't purely about "the bigots". It's actually, to me, far more about (1) if this alternate term offers me a new perspective on my experience such that I can take healthy steps I couldn't before (2) if this makes things clearer or muddier to non-bigots whom I am trying to express my experience.
Terra: Chaos Lesbian
Anyone saying being Trans is a trauma response that can be treated is the same person saying all kinds of other transphobic shit and any fucking thing we say they're going to try to use as a weapon and there's no way I'm going to modify my language to try to avoid the moving target of their fucking bigotry because the point of bigotry is not to hit a goal but because me working around them IS the goal.
Kit Rhett Aultman
@Terra @Ghostynn @YouShallNotPass @Dani @AlwaysAutumn Sure, and I'm kinda exploring two parallel questions: (1) How does this change my sense of my experience and my ability to communicate about myself? (2) Should I be advocating for replacing the term "gender dysphoria" with "gender trauma"?
Terra: Chaos Lesbian
Yes. Totally. And those two things are why I used it in both counseling and marriage counseling this week. But also why I don't want to change it, because it hits both those marks for me. (but may not for you, granted)
Kit Rhett Aultman
@Terra @YouShallNotPass @Ghostynn @Dani @AlwaysAutumn Yes, definitely those things, but also transness has come to be defined by a simplified narrative of "I have gender dysphoria and my transition will relieve me of that". And we're well aware of the gaps that fellow trans siblings are falling through because of this concept.
Terra: Chaos Lesbian
I talked to both my marriage counselor and personal counselor this week about that same thing. Simultaneously sanitizing and medicalizing what is fundamentally a social problem of equality and equity.
Kit Rhett Aultman
@Terra @Ghostynn @YouShallNotPass @Dani @AlwaysAutumn My reading of the original thread that introduced the term was that the term "gender dysphoria" should be retired and the term "gender trauma" be promoted. There was an argument of dysphoria coming from the cis patriarchal medical establishment while "gender trauma" is authentically from the experiences of trans people. I'd gotten the idea one term was to replace the other.
Terra: Chaos Lesbian
Random though I had reading your response: Are they actually identical? I realize I've been using "dysphoria" to describe my internal sense of wrongness (genital dysphoria being a big one) and "trauma" to describe my external sense (presentational, historical, etc.). I might have to think about that more.
Kit Rhett Aultman
@faithisleaping @YouShallNotPass @Ghostynn @Terra @Dani @AlwaysAutumn I appreciate your efforts here and I'll reread this a few times. To be clear, my (possibly not as the author intended) takeaway from the "gender trauma" post was that it advocated for ending "gender dysphoria" as a concept and reframing it all as "gender trauma". I might have been mistaken, but I'm glad to be hearing so many perspectives.
Legally Faith :v_tg: :v_lb:
@roadriverrail Splitting off before the transphobia discussion...
I don't think that's accurate. I think dysphoria, the trauma many of us have are separate, usually unrelated things, and neither are really intrinsic to bring trans. Being trans just means that your internal sense of gender doesn't fit the category you were assigned at birth. That can be true without causing you unbearable pain or trauma. It's also possible to have dysphoria or gender-related trauma without a strong sense of gender identity different from you both category. (That can get confusing as hell.)
Dysphoria is a bit of a bucket term but what many of us experience is a sort of body horror at having the wrong parts. That isn't caused by anything as far as anyone can tell. That's just or brains being wired to expect something other than what's there. It can be traumatizing if it's bad enough but often isn't.
This body horror is categorically different from when someone looks at themselves in the mirror and doesn't like their weight or wishes they were more muscular. That's wishing for things in-line with your biological programming. Dysphoria is when your body is just wrong.
This is part of why dysphoria is so hard for cis people to understand. Their bodies are fundamentally right so they've never experienced that feeling. They just want more defined abs or something.
Many of us are also traumatized. Often that comes from having to fake a social fever role that doesn't fit you. My "favorite" example is the special hell (for me) that is guys church BBQs. Lots of just standing around trying to be a guy and have guy talk. The important thing about that example is that no one was intending to hurt me, they were just treating me like a guy. Many of us also experience more direct physical or emotional abuse. I was picked on all the time by the jocks in my class for being, well, not a jock? It may not have been gender related but it also kinda doesn't matter. They treated me like crap and left scars.
Where this all gets messed up is diagnoses. Because the medical system works on terms of disease and treatment, it's not good enough for you to say "I hate my penis and want a vagina", you have to prove that having a penis is causing you harm that they can fix with a vaginoplasty. This means that if you look at a psychology textbook definition of dysphoria, it's going to focus on the depression and anxiety, not on the root cause that is having the wrong body parts or the wrong hormones flowing through your body.
Kit Rhett Aultman
@Terra @faithisleaping @YouShallNotPass @Ghostynn @Dani @AlwaysAutumn I'm glad to have remembered the original concept correctly. Yeah, part of those shoes fit and part didn't, and as somone who has relatively mild dysphoria that requires a more nuanced transition, I honestly haven't really experienced it through a trauma lens, though I've definitely been traumatized too. Again, thank y'all for being patient.
Terra: Chaos Lesbian
@roadriverrail That seems to be how CJ Bellwether was using it, but I'm not sure whether that was her fully fleshed out intention, and it's not really how I think about it (at least not in such a simple way). I'm honestly starting to think about dysphoria being internal and trauma being external.
@faithisleaping @YouShallNotPass @Ghostynn @Dani @AlwaysAutumn
Kit Rhett Aultman
@Ghostynn @faithisleaping @YouShallNotPass @Terra @Dani @AlwaysAutumn I really appreciate all the context and resources you've brought to the conversation. I think perhaps the folklore around dysphoria hasn't fully tracked with some of the things you brought up.
Ghost isn't in the shell 🏳️⚧️
@faithisleaping @roadriverrail @YouShallNotPass @Terra @Dani @AlwaysAutumn that's basically literally what DSM-V did: it's why the best practice now is to affirm, and it's no longer considered pathological
Legally Faith :v_tg: :v_lb:
@roadriverrail I'm not super familiar with all the gender trauma arguments but I suspect it gets into the last bit of what I said. Because the medical system is looking for a disease to treat, the medical definitions and diagnoses focus on things like depression and anxiety. You have to prove you're in enough gender-related pain to be worth it for them to pay to treat you. 🙄 Before transition, I would lay awake nights wishing I could be a girl and fantasizing about how that could happen. They don't care one iota about my desire, just the fact that I was losing sleep. It's the worst sort of capitalist gatekeeping. In that sense, maybe the symptoms they're looking for would be better described by the word "trauma" but that's because they're largely looking for the wrong things.
When you instead shift from a disease and treatment model to asking "what does this person need to thrive and what's standing in their way?" we can look at things in a far more nuanced way. I can say "I'm far happier on estrogen" and that's enough of a reason for me to be on HRT without having to prove that I'm miserable on testosterone.
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