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1. Embed this notice
   Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 09:06:53 JST Chris Trottier

   • Evan Prodromou

   First off, @evan@cosocial.ca sees this from the perspective of someone who's co-authored #ActivityPub. It's his job to spur and enable adoption -- and that's something he's done exceptionally well for 20 years. Of course he wants to help Meta abide by open standards. Which, even if you dislike Meta, you would hope they would do.
   
   My perspective is as one who is building products that compete with Meta. Ideally, I would like people who use Meta to migrate away from there and instead use #Calckey, #GreatApe, and the numerous options available on #SpaceHost.
   
   But even from the perspective of a competitor, I want interoperability with #Barcelona. And even more, I want interoperability based on open standards.
   
   Yes, yes, yes -- "embrace, extend, extinguish". At this point, that phrase is a broken record.
   
   But every time that phrase comes up, I keep asking folks: when has the "extinguish" part of "embrace, extend, extinguish" ever worked?
   
   People say #RSS, but RSS is still here and I use every day. Hell, Calckey even has an RSS widget and it works like a charm. RSS is not extinguished.
   
   People also say #XMPP, but I can run an XMPP server right now -- no problems. People say XMPP "died" because it's no longer as popular now, but is it because Meta and Google dropped support, or is it because Slack, Discord, Signal, WhatsApp, and even Matrix have come along to eclipse it in popularity? Regardless, even if XMPP is no longer so popular, it's not extinguished.
   
   The most ludicrous example of "extinguish" people bring up is Gmail's dominance of email. But email is the most popular communications technology we have today, even though it's 50 years old. What's more, look at the raw stats. Gmail is only 18% of the email server market -- that's no monopoly. Go have a look at the stats for yourselves:
   
   https://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/email_server
   
   Suffice it to say, email is not "extinguished".
   
   The pessimistic notion that we will "lose" by allowing Meta to interoperate with ActivityPub -- again, an open standard -- just doesn't convince me. In fact, if Meta is adopting standard ActivityPub, I think "losing" is impossible.
   
   With Meta adopting ActivityPub, we're not losing. We're winning. We're not conceding to Meta by adopting their proprietary APIs for interoperability. They're conceding to us by adopting ActivityPub.
   
   Again, I'm not saying you should all federate with #Barcelona. I'm saying that Meta adopting an open standard that allows for interoperability is a win because, remember, they're adopting our standard. We're not adopting theirs.
   
   Some also ask, "But what if Meta does a bait-and-switch and drops ActivityPub support?"
   
   Well, there's kind of precedence for that.
   
   Not enough people realize this, but Google once adopted the predecessor of ActivityPub. Specifically, they used OStatus for Google Buzz. Certainly, like many Google products, Google Buzz shuttered.
   
   But the development for an open social media protocol lived on, and we all use what was developed right now.
   
   No doubt, if Barcelona becomes Meta's Google Buzz, ActivityPub will live on. It will still be developed. We'll keep using it.
   
   In the meantime, I'll consider ways to help Meta users migrate to platforms that I believe are better.
   
   RE: https://calckey.social/notes/9f9xt5dzh2

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 11:17:32 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • Oblomov
     • Evan Prodromou

     @oblomov@sociale.network @evan@cosocial.ca To a certain extent, Meta’s concern is interoperability. The concern is selfish, and they’re not exactly in it for the good feels. But if they weren’t looking for interoperability, why bother with ActivityPub? They would do just as fine without it.
     
     But that’s neither here nor there. Going back to my earlier points, what’s the alternative here?
     
     It’s not Fediblock. You know why that’s not likely, so it’s silly to discuss that.
     
     It’s not wagging our fingers at Meta and tell them to stop using ActivityPub because we don’t have control over that.
     
     And it’s not migrating to AT protocol because that’s a different can of worms in and of itself.
     
     The only practical option I see is to leverage interoperability to offer alternatives to Meta.
     
     Meta isn’t our friend. But just because they’re not a friend doesn’t mean we abandon interoperability.

   • Embed this notice
     Oblomov (oblomov@sociale.network)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 11:17:45 JST Oblomov

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @atomicpoet @evan
     I'd expect someone interested like you in bringing as many people as possible to the Fediverse to be wary of that.
     It should be obvious that Meta's aim isn't interoperability: if they cared about that at all these plenty they could do even now, even without AP. But that's not what they're after. They're after Twitter, BlueSky and the Fediverse, and they can sink all of them at the same time with this bait-and-switch.
     4/4

   • Embed this notice
     Oblomov (oblomov@sociale.network)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 11:17:54 JST Oblomov

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @atomicpoet @evan good or bad as it may be, Mastodon and the Fediverse currently have a “mindspace”. Average users get to hear about it. And this is what Meta is going after: remove it from the mindspace with the same bait-and-switch they pulled on RSS and XMPP. When they're done, ActivityPub will go back to being stuff for nerds only. Sure, some of us will keep using it, but it will be gone from the global consciousness.
     3/

   • Embed this notice
     Oblomov (oblomov@sociale.network)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 11:18:05 JST Oblomov

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @atomicpoet @evan
     and the are major sites that either don't advertise them or don't even produce them anyone —notably, in this context, the Meta silos. RSS may still exists, but it's now relegated to stuff for nerds. It's even worse for XMPP. (Compare and contrast with email, still widely used by a significant portion of Internet users.)
     2/

   • Embed this notice
     Oblomov (oblomov@sociale.network)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 11:18:17 JST Oblomov

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @atomicpoet @evan “killed” in this context doesn't mean “removed from existence”, it means “wiped out from the collective consciousness of Internet users”. There used to be a time when every website proudly sported clearly visible links to their RSS feeds. Today you'll be lucky to find it mentioned at all in the visible part of the page, and often the links to feed won't even be included in the HTML head when though the site still supports them
     1/

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 11:49:45 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • Jon

     @jdp23 I feel you’re being disingenuous here. I never said anything about “working with Meta”. Quite the opposite.
     
     I spoke about Meta interoperating with us. That’s not “working with Meta”. That’s something Meta is doing on their own regardless of whether anyone likes it or not.
     
     Interoperability will happen because ActivityPub is an open protocol, and you can’t control who uses it.
     
     I also spoke about why Fediblock is not feasible, and why addressing Meta requires a different strategy.
     
     I also didn’t point to RSS, XMPP, or email as successes (though they are) but as examples of why the “extinguish” part of “embrace, extend, and extinguish” doesn’t work.
     
     More to the point, nobody is offering any alternative solutions here other than Fediblock. However, Fediblock is not a migration path, and the it’s unlikely that’s ever going to happen.
     
     So no, this doesn’t clarify “anything” except that you either didn’t read what I wrote, or imagined me saying something else entirely.
     
     Take care 👋

   • Embed this notice
     Jon (jdp23@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 11:49:46 JST Jon

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet I askedWhat are the other examples where #Meta has "conceded" like this and it's worked out well for the communities they've "conceded" to?... and you discussed RSS, XMPP, email, and Google Buzz.
     
     Which really clarifies why we see things differently. If your standard for success for the products and communities you're building is "just as successful as RSS, XMPP, and Google Buzz", then you may well be right that working with #meta is the best way to get there.

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 11:53:07 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • Oblomov
     • Evan Prodromou
     • Alexander The 1st

     @AT1ST@mstdn.ca @oblomov@sociale.network @evan@cosocial.ca MySpace is a terrible comparison because it’s proprietary site that aimed to own the social graph.
     
     What we’re discussing here is a protocol.

   • Embed this notice
     Alexander The 1st (at1st@mstdn.ca)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 11:53:14 JST Alexander The 1st

     in reply to

     • Oblomov
     • Evan Prodromou

     @oblomov @atomicpoet @evan Right - my immediate thought was to double check on MySpace - because, as it turns out, it's still "Not extinguished" officially...but the public consciousness doesn't think to usually go to ( https://myspace.com/discover/featured ) specifically for non-niche use cases, beyond checking if it *does* exist, or (Presumably, never had an actual account for it - by the time I would've, Facebook became the big go-to social network) as an musician

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:10:48 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • Oblomov
     • Mike Fraser :Jets:
     • Evan Prodromou

     @mike@thecanadian.social @oblomov@sociale.network @evan@cosocial.ca Some people love claiming control over a fiefdom 🤷♂️

   • Embed this notice
     Mike Fraser :Jets: (mike@thecanadian.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:10:49 JST Mike Fraser :Jets:

     in reply to

     • Oblomov
     • Evan Prodromou

     @atomicpoet @oblomov @evan The enemy isn't Meta, and it's not Blue Sky, the enemy is ourselves. Admins are walking out and shuttering instances, gatekeepers are chasing away new users, and inter instance disputes are starting. IMHO These are far more threatening developments than anything going on externally.

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:30:51 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • Oblomov
     • Evan Prodromou
     • Alexander The 1st

     @AT1ST@mstdn.ca @oblomov@sociale.network @evan@cosocial.ca You can’t compare websites to protocols. They have entirely different purposes.

   • Embed this notice
     Alexander The 1st (at1st@mstdn.ca)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:30:55 JST Alexander The 1st

     in reply to

     • Oblomov
     • Evan Prodromou

     @atomicpoet @oblomov @evan My point is that it still exists, it's just...generally forgotten that it still exists, because so few people still use it.

     Like when the SMB protocol has a major vulnerability and people go "Wait - SMB 1.0 still is used? There are many more better options.".

     (Granted, I know SMB 3.11 is still used, but a brief look at Google has results for "Move to a better protocol.".)

   • Embed this notice
     Christoffer Tallerås 🇧🇻 (cbt@snabelen.no)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 13:25:53 JST Christoffer Tallerås 🇧🇻

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @atomicpoet

     I hope I get credit for this rebuttle to "embrace, extend, extinguish" one day. Not that it matter. Its more important that people stop thinking it. I should have just made an english article to point to.

     @evan

     Chris Trottier likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Yohan Yukiya Seseㆍ사요한・謝雪矢 (youronlyone@c.im)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 13:51:30 JST Yohan Yukiya Seseㆍ사요한・謝雪矢

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @atomicpoet

     This: (probably a lil bit off-topic)

     > Of course he wants to help Meta abide by open standards. Which, even if you dislike Meta, you would hope they would do.

     I mentioned it before, this is the disconnect between the #1stGen (2008–2015) and #2ndGen (2016–Present) #Fediverse users.

     Us, 1st Gen, our concern is to bring the down the walls and enable a decentralised and federated #SocialWeb. The idea itself is older than the fediverse, there were many names involved and who pioneered the pushed for it and are now forgotten.

     Even me, to this day, I do welcome them federating even if they already did something EEE-like before (for example, FB Messenger federating and then defederating from #xmpp).

     While I do want people to migrate over to a fediverse service made for it by developers who believes in it, the main goal is still to bring down the walls, and get them to federate … permanently.

     It's why I also I welcome #Flickr and #Tumblr into the fold (and waiting for them to do so).

     And for someone like me who was banned from #Instagram for no reason at all other than because I am #Autistic (I rarely use my Instagram, and when I do, it was to upload a work of mine, so clearly there were no violations), having them federate would enable me to communicate with Instagram users once again.

     [[Meta]] [[Fediverse]] [[SocialWeb]] [[ActivityPub]]

     @evan

     Chris Trottier likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Olav (olavf@spacey.space)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 14:58:23 JST Olav

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @atomicpoet
     @evan

     Barcelona is the acid test we've always known would come. If we're resilient, other corps/groups will come, presumably lessening meta's influence. With the larger hope that government systems will see the value of running their own instead of a shoddy meta account

     Chris Trottier likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 15:16:11 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • Oblomov
     • Evan Prodromou

     @oblomov@sociale.network @evan@cosocial.ca Where you and I disagree is on this point: I don’t think Meta is trying to kill ActivityPub. They’re trying to exploit it. Here’s why this matters.
     
     Okay Fediblock happens, and we’ve become Diaspora. We know how that goes.
     
     Or here’s, the other option. Some servers block to preserve the culture they have. And other servers provide a migration path from Meta.
     
     Not everyone talks to Meta. And those who do provide a migration path, and set terms on what is allowable for federation. In this way, decentralization wins.

   • Embed this notice
     Oblomov (oblomov@sociale.network)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 15:16:26 JST Oblomov

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @atomicpoet @evan
     And yes, we can and should make extra-P92 platforms palatable to Meta users, but that's the paper straw equivalent of stopping climate change. It may give us a good feeling and maybe help keep our local environment in better conditions, but it'll be completely ineffective at stopping what's coming (out of metaphor, the Fediverse being wiped out of the general consciousness).

     3/3

   • Embed this notice
     Oblomov (oblomov@sociale.network)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 15:16:35 JST Oblomov

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @atomicpoet @evan If you will, it's like with the environmental crisis: we know what should be done, but it won't be done because some of the people in power prefer a short term illusion of gain over the longer-term resilience of the whole. But if we don't even take our time to discuss what the best approach would be, we're done for.

     2/

   • Embed this notice
     Oblomov (oblomov@sociale.network)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 15:16:41 JST Oblomov

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @atomicpoet @evan
     They're bothering with ActivityPub because that's what they need to do to kill its momentum. It's a temporary measure so that the disgruntled users that still pine for what they remember as old Twitter will jump in, before they close the door and defederated for good.

     Fediblock WOULD be the right answer, even if it probably won't be given especially by the some larger generalist instances like m.s
     1/

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 15:32:15 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • Jon

     @jdp23 Well, how are we measuring success?
     
     If it’s about persistence, nothing beats open protocols.
     
     If it’s raw numbers, tech goes in and out of fashion. Nevertheless, something like email is still the most popular communications tool we have, and that won’t change.
     
     What we’re trying to change here is to focus on protocols, not platforms.

   • Embed this notice
     Jon (jdp23@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 15:32:16 JST Jon

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet Sorry, I don't mean to be disingenuous. I had asked What are the other examples where #Meta has "conceded" like this and it's worked out well for the communities they've "conceded" to?and I thought you were answering. If not, yeah, I did misread your post; apologies for the confusion on my part.
     
     Do you think RSS or XMPP are examples of that?
     
     Are there other examples you have in mind?

   • Embed this notice
     : j@fabrica:~/src; :t_blink: (josephholsten@mstdn.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 15:58:51 JST : j@fabrica:~/src; :t_blink:

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou
     • Yohan Yukiya Seseㆍ사요한・謝雪矢
     • ♾️ Yuki (스노 雪亮) 🐬 🧮🗝️

     @youronlyone@c.im @atomicpoet @evan @youronlyone@calckey.social The thing us ancient open web folks also know is that even if Meta gets defederated at first, it will likely federate with the likes of Medium, Tumblr, Flickr etc. And either the protocol will fork, or we’ll get multiple networks. But we don’t have a flat namespace like IRC, so we can likely handle it with relays or individual server peering decisions.

     It’s still better than email in the 1980s.

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Monday, 29-May-2023 02:44:16 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • Riley S. Faelan
     • Evan Prodromou

     @riley@toot.cat @evan@cosocial.ca What a story that was. I’ve never witnessed anything so ridiculous in my life.

   • Embed this notice
     Riley S. Faelan (riley@toot.cat)'s status on Monday, 29-May-2023 02:44:35 JST Riley S. Faelan

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @atomicpoet: Well, Microsoft used to embrace SCO Unix, extend it as Xenix, and nowadays, SCO is quite dead.

     @evan