Chris Trottier
I’m incredibly disappointed.
Verse Communications is pivoting away from SSB and towards Nostr.
Which means that Planetary Social is no longer in active development.
What’s more, Manyverse is no longer in active development either.
This is absolutely terrible for the future of SSB!
See screenshots.
Chris Trottier
So @matt wrote a comparison between SSB and Nostr. Keep in mind he works for Planetary.
And even in their own comparison, I believe that SSB beats Nostr.
But I get it. If you’re trying to actually make a viable commercial product, Nostr has momentum and SSB does not.
However, you know what has more momentum than Nostr? The Fediverse.
Chris Trottier
Look at these two disadvantages of Nostr compared to SSB.
To me, these are a very big deal.
I prize community safety. Abuse and spam are not something that I tolerate. And it seems that at the moment, owners of Nostr relays don't give a damn about community safety.
And these are observations from someone who's pivoting towards Nostr!
Chris Trottier
What's keeping me from using Nostr?
1. Little community moderation
2. Lots of potential for abuse
3. Lots of spam
That's the the specific bone I have to pick.
Chris Trottier
Consequently, I recognize that the very thing that I like about SSB is the very same thing that keeps it from going mainstream:
If you send a message, it will not be seen unless someone else opts into receiving it.
That barrier to entry prevents lots of abuse and spam!
Chris Trottier
Okay, I'm looking at Manyverse's blog and I don't think they've ceased active development!
They just published a blog post this month outlining plans for development.
https://www.manyver.se/blog/2023-02-05
Makes me wonder why rabble said that active development has ceased ?
rabble
@atomicpoet here’s Andre’s post about the future of Manyverse https://viewer.scuttlebot.io/%25kXJEMOQGZqeVZnOK11cUW%2FY9RYzelQwsKWui7OCPYOE%3D.sha256
I think the social scoping isn’t what’s holding ssb. Back. I think the reliance on being able to work offline first and the immutable signed log that you need to go back the the first post to validate is. That’s what is keeping us from having delete and multidevice and what makes private groups much harder.
rabble
@atomicpoet yeah if we can’t solve these plus have a path towards it being a self governed commons then what’s the point. I agree they’re important.
Chris Trottier
@rabble What's your plan on solving these problems with Nostr?
Chris Trottier
@rabble Damn. I saw he wasn't making a whole lot from Patreon.
Dave
@atomicpoet @fediversenews I'm very sorry this has happened. Maybe someone will pick it up and carry on. SSB and Manyverse filled a gap (some people still depend on sneakernet). Manyverse isn't the only app of it's kind, but it is available where others are not.
SSB however, that's huge. I've only used Scuttlebutt a few times and I was just learning about it, but it seems to me Secure Scuttlebutt is at the heart of this set of apps.
Dave
@atomicpoet @matt Yes, but for those that don't have constant access to the internet (or any access at all) use more primitve means to move information: sneakernet, mesh networks, etc.
Sneakernet on it's own isn't reliable (interception, changing messages, etc.)
Hopefully SSB won't remain unmaintained. The Fediverse is cool and all, but only available if you have internet access. SSB can work when no electronic network at all is available.
#FreeAssange
it would be nice to see futures (tools) like this implementing to fedi
@atomicpoet @matt
Blake.tar.gz :disability_flag:
@atomicpoet Isn't it a little late in the game for Nostr to still not have a plan for moderation and community safety? Shouldn't that be a central design feature of a protocol rather than an afterthought? They seem to be really emphasizing the "censorship-proof" thing.
The most valid criticism Nostr makes re: Mastodon/ActivityPub is data duplication, but I don't understand how Nostr aims to solv- Oh, wait, it's corporate centralization, isn't it?
nonlinear
@atomicpoet @fediversenews Manyverse **is** active in development. I know because I help them.
Fábio Costa 🐇🕐🎩☕
@atomicpoet @matt I should correct this crypto vibes to cryptobro vibes
rabble
@atomicpoet the answer is longer than I can put in a toot but I can outline some of the ideas.
Nostr creates feeds like scuttlebutt so you can build an app that displays who you follow and the next degree out. Just like you could have a scuttlebutt app that ran to pull in feeds n hops out to try and show the entire visible network.
Relays are very similar to the way we use rooms & pubs in SSB. They can be a point of shared moderation similar to ssb rooms/pubs but also how the fediverse works
rabble
@atomicpoet Right now nostr either has open relays, limited read / write access, or paid write / open read, or paid read/write. But the paying doesn’t solve the real moderation issue. Decisions about what content should be allowed on a relay will need to be made.
We think that’s fine. Relays should be community controlled. Sure some folks can pay, but really it’s more like are these people posting content I feel comfortable hosting. We can build models with a bunch of different governance….
Chris Trottier
@rabble A few questions:
1. Will I be able to block bad relays full of bad actors?
2. Will their be tools for community safety that protect people from abuse?
3. Will there be any proactive moderation tools such as comment control and delegation of permissions?
rabble
@atomicpoet models.
In effect I think nostr relays will end up with a fediverse style gossip, you write to yours but it then the relay sends copies to the relays used by users who want to follow you.
The big difference is that in this system the server isn’t in control of your data, identity, and follow graph.
But there will be “bad” relays that the others refuse to federate with and clients might end block at the app levels. Think a church relay might block the sex worker relays.
But…
rabble
@atomicpoet if I want to both talk to my church friends and sex worker friends I could get permission to write my messages to both.
Beyond that. We need encrypted groups, I’m leaning towards the MLS derived model that p2panda uses vs the way ahau.io does it in scuttlebutt or the size limited signal / WhatsApp groups.
The offline stuff is possible if nostr clients had a local relay that federated under the Inter relay gossip protocol with cloud hosted relays.
rabble
@atomicpoet so the relays you use are up to you, so definitely you can block relays.
There is a spec to report content and users to relays. The responding to those reports definitely needs both social and technological work.
Proactive moderation tools exist in some nostr apps and also do need work. Using the model of choosing relays you read / write to gives us the ability to have the delegated moderation that we have in the fediverse and lacked in scuttlebutt.
Andrew Chou
@atomicpoet Hello! Core Manyverse dev here ?
You already kind of realized it in some of the replies, but Manyverse development is NOT ceasing. Andre's communication about shifting priorities may come off that way, but what changes for Manyverse is the nature of the work that's done on it. Basically, way less attention to issues related to core protocol limitations, but we'll still be working on bug fixes, qualify of life improvements, etc and doing releases on more or less the same schedule!
André Staltz
@atomicpoet @fediversenews Hey, I'm the creator of Manyverse. It is absolutely still in active maintenance, it's frustrating that Rabble regularly says stuff about me or Manyverse that is plain wrong.
What's happening to Manyverse is that several "realities" (personal life, project technical challenges etc) require me to change "role", from UI developer slash project manager, to protocol designer, to rebuild a core part of SSB. That's it.
masukomi
@staltz @atomicpoet @fediversenews
related:
should also be noted that people can't make PRs to Patchwork. The repo has been archived for nearly 2 years now. Sure, you could fork it, but folks would have done that ages ago if there was enough interest.
As far as I can tell Manyverse seems like the only SSB app being worked on. One could argue Patchfox too but it's hampered by needing some back-end thing and those are all abandoned or don't work anymore for me. :/
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