Evan Prodromou
Wow. A lot of ambivalent feelings here and in the comments. It's an intense topic!
I am a strong yes, but my definition of "programming" might be different from yours. I think of programming as "creating programs", that is, creating novel computer behaviour.
The main way we've done this, so far, is by writing code in a programming language. It's so engrained that most people think coding and programming are synonymous.
But code is just one way to create programs.
Evan Prodromou
Writing code mostly sucks. It's a tedious process with a lot of busywork. Most people find it needlessly byzantine.
I think computer scientists and software engineers self-select for people who understand and enjoy coding. We think it's great, so we don't try very hard to explore other modes for software construction.
When we do, the visual programming or 3GL systems we create are limited and less powerful than our existing coding model, so we don't put much energy into them.
Evan Prodromou
I think everybody should be able to program the same way I think everybody should be able to attend a city council meeting. If there are systemic impediments to people exercising that power, that's a problem with the system, not the people.
There's an engineered helplessness in most people's experience of technology. I'm a software developer, and about 75% of the time I feel like a total victim of the software I use. It sucks.
People deserve to control their tech and share it with others.
Evan Prodromou
One really dark part of this thread is how many people respond that it would be terrible if everyone were forced to learn how to code.
Like, what an awful comment on the state of software construction that is. Our idea of making software is so miserable that we imagine a horrible dystopia where people are *forced* under duress to use our shitty programming toolchains.
Evan Prodromou
@beardymcnerd the tooling is what requires that level of precision.
Simon Holness
@evan Hmm. I'm not sure that tooling is the problem with the democratisation of programming (making novel computer behaviour).
I see it more as the problem of needing to be very, very clear about your classifications and intents. Like being a lawyer submitting contracts before a judge who can adjudicate 1M contracts per second but has no common sense.
Should everyone be expected to be able to do that?
Maybe the tooling masks this, but I think it's still a problem underlying everything.
Evan Prodromou
@ntnsndr everyone should be able to create programs to control the technology around them, such as phones, computers and smart home objects.
Nathan Schneider
@evan Like, how well? I spent a year of my life as a CS major and play around with projects there and there. But my goodness I can't/don't want to build an actual piece of software. My attempts have been mostly failures, in large part because I am not remotely up to date on what post-2006 engineering is supposed to look like.
To me it sorta seems like writing academic papers. Everyone should have a taste of it, and have an opportunity to get good at it, but nobody should have to.
Evan Prodromou
@ainali how about, should software construction tools be good enough that anyone can create software?
Jan Ainali
@evan For the question as written, I would have voted a strong disagree. But if it was asked "Should everyone be offered to learn how to program?" then I would have answered a strong agree.
Evan Prodromou
@drgeraint I had a few others: everybody should be able to get healthcare, everybody should be able to attend school, everybody should be able to drink clean water.
Geraint
@evan There are so many interesting facets to this view. It is important for people to have the ability to make tech work for them, but what really strikes me is the comparison: what proportion of people ever attend a city council meeting?
Evan Prodromou
@zcopley I know, right?
zcopley
@evan :
“I'm a software developer, and about 75% of the time I feel like a total victim of the software I use. It sucks.”
Then, what hope do the rest of us have?
Evan Prodromou
@monnier are you a Monnier that I know in person?
Stefan Monnier
@evan
While we (prog-lang guys) maybe make it harder than it could be, I believe programming is fundamentally comparable to math in that it requires abstraction. There's hope that machine learning might help overcome the problem, where "simple" problems will be solved by providing examples of what you want, but we're not quite there yet
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