Notices by Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)

@Suiseiseki the CPU microcode ROM contains software, as the FSF makes clear.

@Suiseiseki It's talking about CPU microcode, which is stored in ROM.

@Suiseiseki and if it contains a ROM encoding CPU instructions, it also contains software, as the FSF makes clear in the quote I provided

@Suiseiseki "The exception applies to software delivered inside auxiliary and low-level processors and FPGAs, within which software installation is not intended after the user obtains the product"

@Suiseiseki so, by the FSF's definition, my fridge contains software

@Suiseiseki so why does the FSF call it software?

@Suiseiseki you're ignoring the bit where software in ROM is called software

@Suiseiseki So there's no need for a device that boots from CD to run free software, since it's actually hardware and therefore out of scope?

@Suiseiseki It seems like the FSF disagrees with you - RYF hardware can't include a pressed CD that include proprietary drivers (https://ryf.fsf.org/about/criteria), and it's also made clear that software in ROM is, well, software

@Suiseiseki If I give you a computer that only has a CD drive and the computer boots from that, is the computer running software?

@Suiseiseki whoops, managed to post as a top level rather than a reply, but:

The ROM is hardware, what the ROM contains is software. Otherwise you end up arguing that software on a pressed CD is hardware, which is clearly nonsense.

Them: code stored in an immutable physical form is hardware
Me: an Ubuntu live CD is hardware

@Suiseiseki Hardware executes things. Software is what is executed. Making software immutable doesn't make it not software.

@Suiseiseki Code that executes on a general purpose core is software, end of discussion

@Suiseiseki Software doesn't stop being software just because it's in ROM

@liw Imagine a Yubikey that understands TPM quotes and can blink an LED at you during boot to tell you your laptop is in the expected state

@liw I actually have a bunch of use cases for wanting to modify that, which pushes us into an interesting space

Yeah great ok the manufacturer also has no ability to patch my fridge but how does that help me this differentiation between software in ROM and software in flash is absolute bullshit, it's all software and it should all be free and modifiable

RMS printer moment, but it's about my fridge failing to run the ice maker fill tube heater for long enough so it freezes so the ice maker gets no water and makes no ice, but also the software controlling this is in ROM so the FSF says it's fine even though there's no way I can fix it even though I am entirely capable of reverse engineering and patching it otherwise

@ryanc was underneath the car, and prioritised not being there over pictures