Notices by Daniel Düsentrieb (theduesentrieb@social.linux.pizza)

@Radical_EgoCom @JoeChip @MikeDunnAuthor thats like an answer out of a book, and probably what was imagined, yet no sign of the "withering of the state" has taken place after in any big socialist revolutions, instead the state was reinforced over and over against outside threat's, which would be somewhat reasonable as well as inside dissidents. Whats not reasonable is sending anarchists and social revolutionaries to their deaths, which had no lesser part in the Russian Revolution than the Bolsheviks

@Radical_EgoCom @JoeChip @MikeDunnAuthor well thats a convenient excuse, isn't it? If any opposition regarding the state as a political tool is silenced, who would ever dare to speak out for it's "withering", if doing so would likely come with the accusation of being "counter-revolutionary"?

With acting like that imo the Bolsheviks determined the end of the revolution, building an authoritarian state (which had its achievements nonetheless) which would either remain just this or fail and fall back into capitalism, like it happened in russia as well as china.

I find it fatal to stick to the same recipes from over a hundred years ago (not just because of the time but of the materialist conditions of the time) and repeat the same mistakes (of which anarchists made plenty as well), when building towards future revolutions.

@Radical_EgoCom @JoeChip @MikeDunnAuthor ok, if using this terms: As the state is a tool of class oppression, it requires classes of oppressor's and oppressed. That far I agree.

I would also argue that a state always works towards this class division to preserve it's existence, and to resolve it is directly opposed to the state itself. So if one oppressing class is toppled, another takes it's place.

In theory with the so called DotP the classes just switched places. I would argue that very soon after the revolution in russia, no significant part of the bourgeoisie was present in russia, either fled or executed, the MoP taken.

Therefore with the new state in place two classes formed. One of Bolshevik party functionaries, dissolving the sovjets and centralize control over the MoP and the once more disenfranchised proletariat, while the former claimed to speak for the latter.

I assume you would most likely disagree with the last part. I would be honestly curious, how anyone can ever work towards liberation of the working class, if said working class has no control whatsoever over it?

@Radical_EgoCom @JoeChip @MikeDunnAuthor but does that not contradict the very idea of the DotP? I personally don't like the term, but I understand the necessity of the proletariat claiming political power, not to give up this power in favour of party rule, how well meaning it might be.

Can you see what I mean when I say: abolishing class was lost as a goal, the moment the Bolsheviks insisted that they and only they could do or even attempt it?

@Radical_EgoCom @JoeChip @MikeDunnAuthor

I agree, I'd rather call them delegates, to avoid confusion with parliamenterism, but that is just word juggling.

This is what the early sovjets were meant to do or different approaches of council communism.

I see very little difference, besides terms, between this and for instance, an anarchist confederation.

I just disagree that this was in place in the sovjet union or is in current countries calling themselves socialist

@Radical_EgoCom @JoeChip @MikeDunnAuthor so if an anarchist confederation had the means of defending the revolution, would establish an economy based on the socialist principle "from each according to their abilities to each according to their needs" and therefore organise society, would there still be a necessity for a state?

@Radical_EgoCom @JoeChip @MikeDunnAuthor I admit I understand that, but before, let's say, 1871 any socialist revolutions had been "what if" scenarios and socialists, marxists as well as anarchists have achived much to learn from.

Anyway, I have to call it a day were I live, but thanks for the discussion

@Radical_EgoCom @JoeChip @MikeDunnAuthor Good morning.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that we have to start from scratch like the comunards. We have plenty of examples from revolutionary struggles.

I would just argue that longevity is hardly a measure for success, because it says nothing about the political system itself, or it's applicability to todays conditions.

If we stay with the example of the Sovjet Union, I would not deny that it was long lived and also a significant improvement for the proletariats material conditions.

About sustainability, if the sovjet union would have remained a project lead by the proletariat and not just by the party, I would argue that its dissolution would have sparked another revolution immediately. But it wasn't and so the Russian people, used to rulership from above and lacking class consciousness, simply accepted the removal of one ruling class by another. With catastrophic consequences, destroying almost any achievements, made by the Sovjet Union.

That is why I don't see it as successful. They lost the masses as a conscious, self determined power, and this is a death sentence to any revolutionary struggle, regardless of the label

@Radical_EgoCom

You see, that's were at I see the contradiction.

You can either have the proletariat as the "ruling" or self-determined class or a Vanguard Party, determining the fate of the rest of the proletariat.

You say they would be the "most class-conscious workers", but who is to determine that?

And was this the case in the Soviet Union?

Imo, during the Russian revolution, the Bolsheviks simply claimed and executed their power and accused their comrades who dared to question this of being "counter-revolutionary".

However. Maybe I understand the concept of a Vanguard party wrong. But do you think that such Vanguard party should come with a tight system of reassuring their actions and the people "in charge" with the working masses, in order to keep probable power hungry individuals from said power?

Kinda like Mao's mass-line, but without Mao as an unchallenged leader and without straight-up executing people.

Ich bitte alle antifaschistischen Mitarbeiter*innen des Rathauses oder der Stadtverwaltung #Pirna , sich mal dieses rein historisch zu verstehende Handbuch anzuschauen.

Nur so als Gute-Nacht-Lektüre 😘

#fckAfd

https://www.hsdl.org/c/abstract/?docid=750070