Hierarchies, like positive feedback loops. can be found everywhere. And whether strict/clean hierarchies or messy, can be as oppressive as any going down the drain, any downward spiral. Or, as useful and beautiful as any sunflower or virtuous circle, or other upward spiral!
For example, just about everyone on Mastodon is fully convinced that Eugen Rochko has brought quote-posts to the Fediverse this year. That's because next to nobody on Mastodon knows that Friendica has been able to quote-post practically everything in the Fediverse, including Mastodon toots, for 15 years now.
And if Friendica doesn't have it, chances are still that Hubzilla has it, and that Hubzilla has probably had it for longer than Mastodon has been around, too.
For example, private messages that are actually private. Mastodon doesn't have them because the "privacy" of Mastodon DMs is only "guaranteed" by limiting whom a DM is sent to. Hubzilla does have them and has had them since 2012, since it was still named Red. How? Because Hubzilla also limits who is permitted to see a DM.
Oh, and Hubzilla even offers optional encryption on top of that.
Or how about server-independent identity? Everyone still waiting for Bluesky to finally be the pioneer who invents this and implements it for the first time? LOL! Once again, Hubzilla has had this since 2012. Not a vague concept, not an unstable proof-of-concept, but daily-driven by production-grade channels on production-grade servers. (streams) has it, too, inherited from Hubzilla through a whole number of forks. Forte has it, too, and Forte is the first and, so far, only Fediverse server software that uses ActivityPub for nomadic identity.
Now I'm waiting for someone to announce that something will "bring" actual groups "to the Fediverse". A feature that was actually introduced to the Fediverse by StatusNet in 2008, and that's also available on Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte. Not to mention that the very principle of the Threadiverse (Lemmy, the remains of /kbin, Mbin, PieFed) is based on groups.
This is what happens when you think that the feature set of the whole Fediverse is the feature set of Mastodon and maybe Pixelfed because that's all you know.
Speaking of Mastodon: Just because it's being "brought to the Fediverse", doesn't mean it'll be adopted by Mastodon.
A friendly reminder for all who are looking for an alternative to gup.pe because it has apparently been taken over by new and/or unknown entities.
tootgroup.py offers group functionality for Mastodon, Pleroma, GotoSocial and probably others (albeit untested). All you need is an account that acts as your group and some computer running Python that regularily connects to it.
Its written by me, easy, lightweight and most importantly, not dependant on a third party service.
The three #Fediverse software with the widest #groups compatibility are:
(in alphabetical order)
- fedigroups.social - see @hello - Friendica - find a Friendica server and host there - Hubzilla - find a Hubzilla server and create your group
The rest have various compatibility issues with other Fediverse software (for years), like group posts/boosts not showing up or your posts not getting boosted or you can't follow the group. This includes #threadiverse software.
If you want to have a true fediverse reach, then choose one from those mentioned above until the other software with federated groups feature improves their compatibility with other fediverse software.
#Groups are coming to #theFediverse: "The most immediate change we can expect from this is convergence of many different kinds of platforms all aiming to support the same basic features…could lead towards a large part of the Fediverse moving beyond short-form microblogging. Another interesting possibility here is that these nascent efforts might lead to some new applications, such leveraging #NodeBB or another piece of software as a replacement for Quora / StackExchange." https://wedistribute.org/2025/01/nodebb-officially-joins-fediverse/
"Group-living animals sleep together, yet most research treats sleep as an individual process. Here, we argue that social interactions during the sleep period contribute in important, but largely overlooked, ways to animal groups’ social dynamics, while patterns of social interaction and the structure of social connections within animal groups play important, but poorly understood, roles in shaping sleep behavior."
On the one hand, FediGroups is kind of lacking from a Hubzilla/(streams) POV. Forums on Hubzilla and (streams) can be made fully private, i.e. nobody from outside the forum can even read them. Not possible on FediGroups because not possible on Mastodon, not to mention that it'd be somewhat inconvenient without server-side OpenWebAuth support.
Also, it's not only possible for Hubzilla and (streams) users to post to Hubzilla and (streams) forums without also posting to their own connections, it's standard. Hubzilla and (streams) forums only forward posts to their connections that come in as direct messages. This does not apply to comments, only to posts.
The same thing is impossible with FediGroups because it rejects direct messages outright.
On the other hand, both features make Hubzilla and (streams) forums harder to use for Mastodon users as they want to use everything in the Fediverse as if it's all Mastodon. Even if a forum is configured to be read by any logged-in user, Hubzilla and (streams) don't recognise logged-in Mastodon users because Mastodon still doesn't have client-side OpenWebAuth support either.
And the very reason why Hubzilla and (streams) forums are being perceived as incompatible with Mastodon is because it's too inconvenient for Mastodon users to start threads on them. I'm not even sure if this has been tested because there's no documentation on this.
Either Mastodon users have to send a DM to the forum which is completely unnatural to Mastodon users who are used to @-mentioning everything unless it's actually private. Or they actually have to mention Hubzilla and (streams) forums with @!, the Hubzilla/(streams) prefix for DMs, which is completely unknown and completely alien to Mastodon, not to mention completely unsupported.
That said, there are even more shortcomings from a Hubzilla/(streams) POV.
It's impossible to make threads with titles because Mastodon doesn't support titles on Note objects. By the way, this might hit the Friendica crowd hard: FediGroups won't work with posts from Friendica with titles because these go out as Article objects (like blog posts) instead of Note objects (like Mastodon toots), and I'm not sure how FediGroups will handle Article objects.
Generally, it seems a crazy idea to build groups on top of something that not only doesn't have a concept of groups, but that doesn't have a concept of conversations either. But then again, at least two thirds of the Fediverse don't have a concept of conversations. Users of these two thirds can only follow threads if everyone in that thread keeps mentioning them in every last post. At least on Hubzilla and (streams), this is completely unnecessary.
Moderation will be unnecessarily difficult because Mastodon also doesn't have a concept of permissions beyond Mute and Block, and because all replies to posts are posts themselves and exclusively owned by whoever posts them and thus can't be moderated by the thread starter.
Also, FediGroups are so far the only "groups" in the Fediverse that don't present themselves as Group actors. Thus, they're the only ones which Hubzilla and (streams) don't list as forums. Even Guppe groups are listed as forums on Hubzilla and probably also on (streams). This can only change if FediGroups actually soft-forks Mastodon and at least adds Group actor identification, no matter how much of Mastodon's code will have to be changed for that.
I'll be honest: I hope that when the redesign of conversations on (streams) goes stable, it'll become a good base for Fediverse-wide forums, even for Mastodon users who think the Fediverse is only Mastodon and for notoriously stubborn Misskey plus Forkeys.
@HistoPol That sucks. Why would @Gargron waste limited resources on (I guess?) FOSS that could be used? I don't necessarily think that Mastodon development intentionally aims for as little compatibility with the rest of the Fediverse as possible. It might just as well be a case of refusing to acknowledge that the Fediverse is more than Mastodon or a case of not even knowing what the rest of the Fediverse can do.
However: Mastodon is notorious for ignoring a) standards and b) stuff that already exists. Mastodon does not fulfill the ActivityPub standard to a tee. It's just as close to it as it has to be and diverts from it wherever it feels like it.
One example is the sensitive flag for images. There's something for this in the official ActivityPub standard. And yet, when Mastodon adopted ActivityPub, it decided to not only have its own home-brew, non-standard, undocumented sensitive flag but to also not support the ActivityPub standard flag at all.
AFAIK, (streams) lets you flag images in your file space as sensitive because Hubzilla does. However, when you flag an image as sensitive, and you embed it into a post that also goes to Mastodon, then Mastodon will treat this image as unflagged. (streams) jumps through a hoop now and puts Mastodon's non-standard sensitive flag on all images in posts that have the hashtag #nsfw and/or #sensitive.
Also, it's strange how long it takes Mastodon to implement quote-posts or groups. Both things that have been around since 2010 when Friendica was launched. There's a whole bunch of Fediverse projects that have groups/forums, for example, the various Reddit replacements. Misskey and all its forks have quote-posts. Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) have always had both.
So, given Mastodon's track record, chances are that Mastodon's implementation of groups becomes incompatible both with how Lemmy communities and /kbin magazines work and with how Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) have groups/forums implemented.