@freemo @lonelyowl so to bring it back around to my original argument, I think that arguing from values is less assailable than the types of arguments they're trying to make. I think they're making emotional arguments disguised as practical ones, I think that these types of arguments are easier to make people flip. in my lifetime americans have really turned against a lot of the first amendment arguments i was taught in like, grade school because they were so universally considered american values at that point. the NRA is successful because their primary argument against gun control is "fuck you"