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@aral Yeah. As someone who's run communities _outside_ the big corporate tech space, I think there's there's other parts needed: the equivalent of third space (if first space is the small web, analagous to one's home, and second space the workplace, or corporate structure, then third space is the community space, a place to exist outside both, a big part of the public sphere.)

And in both sides of the analogy, second space has taken way too much from us: ideally we'd disassemble the concept we have of the workplace and the corporate internet both into much more communal, small-scale overlapping structures rather than large scale fiefdoms.

But just as much as that's what healthy looks like, any union organizer can tell you to watch out for small business owners. They get vicious as much or more than the corporate sorts. Community servers can have the same flavors of drama and unhealthy power structures. The entrenched few with power can defend it with quite a lot of might.

But there's still value in collective things, not just individual.