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Let The Right Hon In (danhon@dan.mastohon.com)'s status on Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 10:57:38 JST Let The Right Hon In

On reflection the whole qt thing will probably be rendered moot by link preview cards and the only friction then ends up being "how hard is it to copy a link and paste it into the post field", in which case we're back to where we are.

In conversation Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 10:57:38 JST from dan.mastohon.com permalink
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  J. Nathan Matias 🦣 (natematias@social.coop)'s status on Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 10:57:22 JST J. Nathan Matias 🦣
  in reply to
  @darius @ryanrandall @jessamyn @dansinker @danhon
  The dilemma about quote tweets is the result of trying to solve issues of substantive ethics through procedural means, because the people involved by definition do not have & do not want to have shared governance. Among other things, it is a design feature used to enlist growing numbers of people in conflict. If functioning shared governance existed, it would not be needed as much.
  
  In conversation Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 10:57:22 JST permalink
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  Darius Kazemi (darius@friend.camp)'s status on Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 10:57:23 JST Darius Kazemi
  in reply to
  @ryanrandall @jessamyn @dansinker @danhon I read your thread and yup, this is all stuff I have considered.
  serious question: would you also want that ping for people posting a link to a post?
  I am trying to balance the need of minority communities who desperately want the feature in order to do things like advocate for causes they care about against the need of (often overlapping) communities that have been hurt by similar features in the past.
  
  In conversation Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 10:57:23 JST permalink
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  Ryan for a permanent ceasefire (ryanrandall@hcommons.social)'s status on Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 10:57:27 JST Ryan for a permanent ceasefire
  in reply to
  @darius @jessamyn @dansinker @danhon I personally would love to see explicit consent built in to any kind of quote-boosting feature.
  Perhaps a DM notification that would require the initial poster to approve a quote boost before it goes out?
  It not only would give them power to approve, but also provide warning that they might want to lock down their accounts if they've been found by a group trying to brigade against them.
  This second facet would hopefully act as a deterrent against bad-faith, weaponized decontextualization.
  Should anyone be interested, here's a short thread with more of what I've been mulling over about this: https://hcommons.social/@ryanrandall/109553154946648210
  In conversation Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 10:57:27 JST permalink
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  1. Domain not in remote thumbnail source whitelist: spaces.hcommons.social
    
    Ryan Randall :OpenAccess: :hc: (@ryanrandall@hcommons.social)
    
    from Ryan Randall :OpenAccess: :hc:
    
    Weaponized decontextualization is rampant on social media. It's contributed to bringing guns into Comet Pizza, looking for a non-existent basement and hero wish fulfillment. It's contributed to the crowds physically harassing or outright assaulting librarians, school teachers, health care workers, and far too many others who make our world better. My main question to anyone longing for a quote boosts feature is "how can it be done in a way that minimizes weaponized decontextualization?" If your answer is effectively "we'll kick that down the road to instance moderation or up/down votes," that's a problem. Sometimes interface friction is a good thing.
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  Darius Kazemi (darius@friend.camp)'s status on Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 10:57:28 JST Darius Kazemi
  in reply to
  - Dan Sinker
  - Jessamyn
  @jessamyn @dansinker @danhon that's my main problem with it - is my fetish for elegance making me miss something obviously bad here
  
  In conversation Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 10:57:28 JST permalink
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  Jessamyn (jessamyn@glammr.us)'s status on Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 10:57:33 JST Jessamyn
  in reply to
  - Darius Kazemi
  - Dan Sinker
  @darius @dansinker @danhon It is oddly elegant.
  
  In conversation Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 10:57:33 JST permalink
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  Darius Kazemi (darius@friend.camp)'s status on Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 10:57:34 JST Darius Kazemi
  in reply to
  - Dan Sinker
  @dansinker @danhon I quite like it.
  
  In conversation Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 10:57:34 JST permalink
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  Dan Sinker (dansinker@omfg.town)'s status on Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 10:57:35 JST Dan Sinker
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  - Darius Kazemi
  @darius @danhon oh that is... a very good solution?
  
  In conversation Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 10:57:35 JST permalink
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  Darius Kazemi (darius@friend.camp)'s status on Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 10:57:36 JST Darius Kazemi
  in reply to
  
  @danhon the implementation on fedibird (a fork with quotes) is basically exactly an expanded link preview and a button in the UI that lets you one-click start a post with a link in it
  When the post reaches servers that don't support it, it just renders like:
  My comment on this post
  QT: [link]
  
  In conversation Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 10:57:36 JST permalink
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  Darius Kazemi (darius@friend.camp)'s status on Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 10:57:36 JST Darius Kazemi
  in reply to
  
  @danhon it doesn't notify people who are QTed, but it DOES add it as a threaded reply to the original, which is the main difference from Twitter
  
  In conversation Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 10:57:36 JST permalink
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  J. Nathan Matias 🦣 (natematias@social.coop)'s status on Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 11:00:59 JST J. Nathan Matias 🦣
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  @darius @ryanrandall @jessamyn @dansinker @danhon I have sometimes wondered if the most useful feature for managing features like QT would be a way for people you know and trust to give you feedback when you’re being a jerk. Except that even this proceduralism would likely fail because of selection bias in friends and audience.
  
  In conversation Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 11:00:59 JST permalink
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  J. Nathan Matias 🦣 (natematias@social.coop)'s status on Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 11:06:41 JST J. Nathan Matias 🦣
  in reply to
  - Darius Kazemi
  @darius I don’t think the answer will be found in situation-agnostic design features. It’s a question of power, which means institutions and culture and relationships. Thinking about Adrienne Marie Brown’s work in particular here.
  
  In conversation Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 11:06:41 JST permalink
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  J. Nathan Matias 🦣 (natematias@social.coop)'s status on Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 11:07:22 JST J. Nathan Matias 🦣
  in reply to
  @darius @ryanrandall @jessamyn @dansinker @danhon ?
  
  In conversation Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 11:07:22 JST permalink
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  Darius Kazemi (darius@friend.camp)'s status on Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 11:07:23 JST Darius Kazemi
  in reply to
  @natematias @ryanrandall @jessamyn @dansinker @danhon unfortunately I feel the need to figure out how to productively address this dilemma
  
  In conversation Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 11:07:23 JST permalink
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  J. Nathan Matias 🦣 (natematias@social.coop)'s status on Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 21:05:46 JST J. Nathan Matias 🦣
  in reply to
  @dansinker @danhon @ryanrandall @jessamyn @darius
  Intrigued by the data Q. Might post about it once I recover. Part 1:
  - burden of proof
  - how much harassment/harm is acceptable on avg
  - how the idea of a design feature causing harm takes you down a path that makes other kinds of intervention seem implausible
  Part 2: asking the Q:
  Micro:
  - recruitment to harassment
  - moral outrage
  Macro:
  - how was it used in practice on Twitter
  
  In conversation Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 21:05:46 JST permalink
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  Dan Sinker (dansinker@omfg.town)'s status on Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 21:05:48 JST Dan Sinker
  in reply to
  @danhon @ryanrandall @jessamyn @darius @natematias I'm being serious! It just seems like on Mastodon there's this inherent understanding that QTs == bad and, well, could someone point me to the data that backs that up?
  
  In conversation Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 21:05:48 JST permalink
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  Let The Right Hon In (danhon@dan.mastohon.com)'s status on Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 21:05:50 JST Let The Right Hon In
  in reply to
  @dansinker @ryanrandall @jessamyn @darius @natematias Careful, Dan
  
  In conversation Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 21:05:50 JST permalink
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  Dan Sinker (dansinker@omfg.town)'s status on Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 21:05:52 JST Dan Sinker
  in reply to
  @danhon @ryanrandall @jessamyn @darius @natematias the funny thing about QTs is there seems to just be a religious conviction that they are a vehicle for harassment, but like... is there any data to back that up?
  
  In conversation Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 21:05:52 JST permalink
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  Let The Right Hon In (danhon@dan.mastohon.com)'s status on Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 21:05:53 JST Let The Right Hon In
  in reply to
  @ryanrandall @jessamyn @dansinker @darius @natematias yes it's a people problem *and* it's interesting to see how we can intentionally and carefully harness tech to help.
  
  In conversation Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 21:05:53 JST permalink
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  J. Nathan Matias 🦣 (natematias@social.coop)'s status on Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 21:37:28 JST J. Nathan Matias 🦣
  in reply to
  @dansinker @danhon @ryanrandall @jessamyn @darius exactly. The question puts harassment into a cost benefit analysis, with all of the consequences of that framing
  
  In conversation Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 21:37:28 JST permalink
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  Dan Sinker (dansinker@omfg.town)'s status on Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 21:37:29 JST Dan Sinker
  in reply to
  @natematias @danhon @ryanrandall @jessamyn @darius probably also worth asking what communication and connections we *lose* by not having QT-like functionality.
  
  In conversation Thursday, 22-Dec-2022 21:37:29 JST permalink
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  J. Nathan Matias 🦣 (natematias@social.coop)'s status on Friday, 23-Dec-2022 04:28:26 JST J. Nathan Matias 🦣
  in reply to
  @ryanrandall @dansinker @danhon @jessamyn @darius Thank you for these thoughts! Because I want to contribute constructively beyond the limitations of scattered conversations and short posts, I have emailed Dan Hon asking how I can help, with a few ideas.
  
  In conversation Friday, 23-Dec-2022 04:28:26 JST permalink
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  Ryan for a permanent ceasefire (ryanrandall@hcommons.social)'s status on Friday, 23-Dec-2022 04:28:27 JST Ryan for a permanent ceasefire
  in reply to
  @natematias @dansinker @danhon @jessamyn @darius Cost-benefit is where my mind goes first, too… but at the risk of "responsibility-splaining" to folks with more experience, if the analysis is done uncritically, it's easy to mistake "we" for a constant, when "we" live within a varied matrix of interlocking oppressions.
  "Our" harms will be unevenly distributed.
  Analyzed uncritically, cost-benefit data'll show you that being Black & gay & an immigrant is inherently high-risk, when our problem is having far too many systems which each quite efficiently route harm toward such a person.
  Right now, the lack of QTs seems to act as a Jersey barrier, with just enough friction to safely redirect low-effort, but occasionally intentional harms.
  Taking the analogy further, hopefully there's an elegant design to let traffic cross lanes and change directions more safely… but any data analysis needs to be careful about what it mistakes for a constant, whose benefits / harms "count," & how they do.
  
  In conversation Friday, 23-Dec-2022 04:28:27 JST permalink

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