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   Loukas Christodoulou (loukas@mastodon.nu)'s status on Wednesday, 14-Dec-2022 03:26:20 JST Loukas Christodoulou

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   Since coming to Mastodon I've seen quite a lot of people using a hammer and sickle symbol (☭) including people who's posts I like.

   Are you doing it to 'own the libs' because you know it's offensive? or do you think it represents an idea of communism which is good in theory - in which case why link it to the symbol of a regime that killed millions?
   #politics #communism

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     Alexandre Oliva (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Wednesday, 14-Dec-2022 03:26:19 JST Alexandre Oliva

     in reply to
     there are also people who use the US flag as a symbol of what it used to stand for, disregarding the recent history of terrorist empire and "finest" example of how capitalism destroys lives, so I guess we can give ☭ users a break for sticking to the idealized original meaning, don't you think?
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     Alexandre Oliva (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Wednesday, 14-Dec-2022 14:53:54 JST Alexandre Oliva

     in reply to
     I'm not sure which one you're asking about, so I'll answer for both: land of freedom and democracy in one case, union of city and countryside workers in the other. they could even go well together, don't you think?
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     Loukas Christodoulou (loukas@mastodon.nu)'s status on Wednesday, 14-Dec-2022 14:53:55 JST Loukas Christodoulou

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva

     @lxo what did it used to stand for?

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     Alexandre Oliva (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Wednesday, 14-Dec-2022 18:13:50 JST Alexandre Oliva

     in reply to
     part of the problem is that USians are kept overwhelmingly underinformed, and quite often misinformed about the atrocities done on behalf of their flag. it's one of the problems with pseudo-democracies that resist public control and accountability through "soft" means like propaganda, controlling access to information and imprisoning journalists and publishers who denounce wrongdoings that the public wouldn't approve of
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     Loukas Christodoulou (loukas@mastodon.nu)'s status on Wednesday, 14-Dec-2022 18:13:51 JST Loukas Christodoulou

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva

     @lxo thank you for your answer and sorry my question was vague! I think most people who display the USA flag do it as part of supporting the USA as they know it today. Likewise if someone from China would display the Chinese flag or someone born in the USSR would display that flag I would not assume they were a Stalinist.

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     Alexandre Oliva (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Wednesday, 14-Dec-2022 18:27:48 JST Alexandre Oliva

     in reply to
     whether violent criminals perceive themselves as espousing a certain ideology and adopting a symbology while carrying out their violence does not automatically make the ideology or the symbology associated with the violence carried out allegedly in its name. this holds for the US flag and constitution as much as to communist symbols and writings. associating any of them with atrocities carried out in their names is propaganda, because neither the symbols nor the writings support those atrocities, which is significantly unlike e.g. the fascist, nazi and bolsonaro symbology and writings, that do support, endorse and promote atrocities.
     so if a gun-armed person carries out a terrorist attack in a school wearing a US flag or a communist icon, associating those icons with terrorism would amount to making the same mistake that the terrorist made, whereas if the person carried a swastika, the association would not be a mistake. hatred is inherent to nazi philosophy, but not inherent to communism. does that make sense to you?
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     Loukas Christodoulou (loukas@mastodon.nu)'s status on Wednesday, 14-Dec-2022 18:27:50 JST Loukas Christodoulou

     in reply to

     • EdenDestroyer (He/Him)
     • laxsill

     @edendestroyer @laxsill the Bolsheviks genuinely saw themselves as socialists and Communists. I don't think the Nazis genuinely saw themselves as Hindus.

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     EdenDestroyer (He/Him) (edendestroyer@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 14-Dec-2022 18:27:51 JST EdenDestroyer (He/Him)

     in reply to

     • laxsill

     @Loukas @laxsill this is more of an issue of bad faith adoption of valuable symbols. The swastika was indeed chosen with its Hindu meaning in mind, which could be made into an argument itself against the global use of the symbol in the modern age. Isn't that what's happening with hammer and sickle too? I dont like it because it is associated with genocidal regimes, but is it inherently representing something genocidal? Its already hard to distinguish between hakenkreuz and swastika, innit.

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     Loukas Christodoulou (loukas@mastodon.nu)'s status on Wednesday, 14-Dec-2022 18:27:52 JST Loukas Christodoulou

     in reply to

     • EdenDestroyer (He/Him)
     • laxsill

     @edendestroyer @laxsill I don't see the analogy with the swastika, because hinduism is not related to nazism. The Nazis didn't call themselves the Dharma Party. If a communist or a socialist displays the symbol of something that called itself the Communist party they are choosing to link themselves to that particular form and interpretation

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     EdenDestroyer (He/Him) (edendestroyer@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 14-Dec-2022 18:27:53 JST EdenDestroyer (He/Him)

     in reply to

     • laxsill

     @Loukas @laxsill I think what they're trying to say is:

     If communism in itself isn't inherently genocidal, but was co-oped to represent genocidal regimes, the same way hakenkreuz bastardized the hindu swastika, can we really rightfully associate hammer and sickle with the regimes that used it as a means of representation?

     Personally, really difficult topic for me.

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     Loukas Christodoulou (loukas@mastodon.nu)'s status on Wednesday, 14-Dec-2022 18:27:54 JST Loukas Christodoulou

     in reply to

     • EdenDestroyer (He/Him)
     • laxsill

     @laxsill @edendestroyer i know that it has been a wider symbol, but it doesn't work that way any more. I don't know enough about Islam to know whether your parallel is accurate I'm afraid:)

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     laxsill (laxsill@tut.amanda.systems)'s status on Wednesday, 14-Dec-2022 18:28:03 JST laxsill

     in reply to

     • EdenDestroyer (He/Him)
     @Loukas @edendestroyer just checking - you do know that the hammer and sickle is a wider symbol than just the USSR flag, right? Just as one could use the shahada printed on the Saudi-Arabian flag without defending the values of that regime, one could use the hammer and sickle without is being a reference specifically to the USSR?
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     Loukas Christodoulou (loukas@mastodon.nu)'s status on Wednesday, 14-Dec-2022 18:28:04 JST Loukas Christodoulou

     in reply to

     • EdenDestroyer (He/Him)

     @edendestroyer The flag of Saudi Arabia aims to represent Islam. Would we consider using it as an act of good faith? I guess we could if the person in question was badly-informed. hence my thread with historical information :)

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     EdenDestroyer (He/Him) (edendestroyer@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 14-Dec-2022 18:28:05 JST EdenDestroyer (He/Him)

     in reply to

     @Loukas I think a lot of people use it in a relatively good faith manner since the symbol aims to represent the proletariat. I personally am not a fan of it even though I come from a Hindu background and very beautifully understand how a "good" symbol can be abused to propagate genocide and violence.

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     Alexandre Oliva (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Wednesday, 14-Dec-2022 19:19:44 JST Alexandre Oliva

     in reply to
     you bring a good point. yeah, the association of white hoods with KKK's hatred is strong, as is the association of the swastika with the nazi, and the associations of the communist symbols and of the US symbols with some of the atrocities carried out in their names. ultimately, symbols, like words, carry whatever meaning communities associate with them, in dynamic and evolutionary processes that can be influenced by creativity, propaganda, appropriation, competing meanings and whatnot. the swastika, for one, may be strongly associated with nazi ideology in the west, while retaining its original religious (?) meaning in the sphere of influence of those religious beliefs. communist symbology may retain the original meaning among people who've studied the theory, while being coopted by propaganda among people who ignore or reject the theory or who disapprove of the alleged attempts to put it in practice. I'm not aware of competing meanings for white hoods, so that could explain a stronger association of the symbol, even if its adoption happened to be accidental (I don't know), or borrowed from unrelated ideology. interesting point, thanks!
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     Loukas Christodoulou (loukas@mastodon.nu)'s status on Wednesday, 14-Dec-2022 19:19:45 JST Loukas Christodoulou

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva

     @lxo it does make sense to me! Thank you. I'm not sure it is a convincing argument, though. People have been wearing white hoods over their faces for a long time but nowadays that is associated above all with the klu klux klan. It doesn't matter whether white hoods have an inherent association with racism or not. If I wear one i expect people will assume I am one. That's the social reality I'd want to avoid.

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     Alexandre Oliva (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Friday, 16-Dec-2022 01:28:22 JST Alexandre Oliva

     in reply to
     I suppose it takes some sort of "energy" to keep an association between symbol and meaning alive. as long as a group of people reinforce that association, it lives on; if nobody fights for (or against) it, it fades to the background
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     Loukas Christodoulou (loukas@mastodon.nu)'s status on Friday, 16-Dec-2022 01:28:23 JST Loukas Christodoulou

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva

     @lxo Yes, I agree it's dynamic. I suspect the memory of the USSR fading is what allows a lot of Americans to see the symbol as unproblematic; although that is very much not the case for people in eastern europe, especially since USSR synbols are now being used by Russian fascists.

     As a historical aside, white hoods have been used in processions in Spain since medieval times. Scots even used a burning cross as a rally symbol ;)