Hannah Grace
I get that the #EUKidsAct is getting a lot of negative chatter from the privacy advocates.
But at the same time to you have to acknowledge there is a serious problem here. I go out in public, I see parents park their kids in front of a tablet to keep them calm, with next to no supervision.
Teenagers are spending on AVERAGE 4-6 hours online per day, instead of going outside and interacting with humans.
So let me ask you, genuinely. What are the concerns here? What needs to be addressed?
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
@jwildeboer @hpod16 great conversation.
I think the likely solution would be a check that happens at signup time, which usually isn't part of the ActivityPub protocol.
However, it might make sense for us to come up with collective solutions for the Fediverse.
Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:
@hpod16 Maybe, maybe not. As the Fediverse contains many different servers with different software, like Mastodon, Misskey, Gotosocial, Peertube and many more, it needs a lot of coordination and maybe even fundamental changes on the protocol level of ActivityPub which is what all implement. And many instances are NOT under EU jurisdiction, so getting it to work everywhere will be difficult. Maybe you want to discuss with @evan and more ppl from the ActivityPub working group?
Hannah Grace
I'd like to look into this more deeply. Because at the same time the EU is financing a pilot project to build a social media that is build on open source (activitypub or atproto).
This act is still some years away from coming into force, and still needs to pass through parliament and council. Do you think that devs may have time to work out elegant solutions that won't kill the fediverse?
Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:
@hpod16 One concern is that in its current form, this act means that operators of Fediverse instances are made responsible to ensure that children below the age of 18 cannot make public posts. To properly do this, it means we, the admins, must do age checks on every signup and implement features to limit posts and interactions across all parties we federate with.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
@jwildeboer @hpod16 one advantage we have for the Fediverse is that we have a variety of governance models. An employer that provides a Fediverse account for employees already knows the age of those employees. Same for a university that provides accounts for students, faculty and staff.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
@jwildeboer @hpod16 as a parent, I can say that kids are not just passive consumers of digital technology. They love to create, they love to communicate, and they love to play. Especially for connecting with family and friends across long distances, digital technology can be a great way to do that.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
@jwildeboer @hpod16 I think the real losers in the age verification structure are volunteer-run, small-scale, open-registration Fediverse servers. They are either going to need access to third-party age verification services, or they have to implement expensive manual processes. Both are burdensome.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
@jwildeboer @hpod16 I think that family servers can provide a lot of the feature control that people and policy makers want. Either hosted instances, or home servers.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
@jwildeboer @hpod16 in part, I think that this type of instance, even though it's the majority on the Fediverse right now, is an interim solution.
But I also recognize that they provide important services to marginalized people, especially LGBTQ+ people including LGBTQ+ youth. I don't think we can throw them under the bus.
Annika Backstrom
@hpod16 A free and open internet cannot be sacrificed, "for the children" or any other cause.
At its best, the internet is the digital commons and an incredible took for learning and connection. Putting it behind identity verification is a death sentence.
It's not only exclusionary, but it gives our most sensitive credentials to companies who have repeatedly proved they cannot secure them, and exposes people to new levels of surveillance and tracking.
It's dystopian and makes me feel hopeless
Annika Backstrom
@hpod16 We are being exploited by advertising companies to the tune of hundred of billions of €. If you're going to do anything, cut the head off that snake. Prohibit dark patterns, limit data harvesting and targeted ads, impose fines and consequences that actually mean something.
Don't punish the open internet for the actions of the rich tech elite, who will continue to exploit children *and* adults under this law.
Oblomov
@hpod16 @redjives just look at the pathetic state of enforcement of the GDPR, from the malicious compliance of cookie banners to the government data exchange programs of US companies like Google and Microsoft that is a glaring institutional hole, or the clusterfuck behind LLMs to see how well these regulations are enforced against US tech companies.
Hannah Grace
@redjives The EU does regulate addictive design overall, as well. However, there if a difference between the internet safety requirements of children, teenager, and adult brains.
J—dV
@hpod16 Algorithmic media is bad for everyone, adults too. So why not regulate that instead? Go after the tech companies that manipulate and profit, instead of introducing onerous, invasive, and anti-privacy age verification that means giving even more data and power to tech companies.
Oh, and for those parents and teens some actually open and accessible (non-comercial) public spaces would probably help too!
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