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   LisPi (lispi314@udongein.xyz)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Aug-2026 11:49:37 JST LisPi

   • Fi 🏳️‍⚧️
   > One argument against its use is that otherwise innocent employees and shareholders will lose money or their jobs.
   
   > shareholders will lose money
   
   Isn't that argument *for* it?
   
   @munin
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Aug-2026 11:49:36 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Fi 🏳️‍⚧️
     @lispi314 @munin not specifically. in the mafia days if a company had significant legitimate use they would prefer to shimmy out the mafioso managers instead of dissolution. like if a company was a front for money laundering, but it was legitimately profitable, they'd just let it continue the legal part.
     
     an organization has to be significantly defective for dissolution to be reasonable. (i've argued in favor of dissolution for the FBI over cointelpro, for example, because hoover being a blackmailer isn't "some bad apples" its "the literal founder was corrupt" and cointelpro was a literal attack on the entire democratic republic)
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Aug-2026 11:51:33 JST iced depresso

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     • Fi 🏳️‍⚧️
     @lispi314 @munin you have a strange idea of what a c-corp is
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     LisPi (lispi314@udongein.xyz)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Aug-2026 11:51:34 JST LisPi

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Fi 🏳️‍⚧️

     @icedquinn @munin I mostly mean fuck the shareholders.

     The primary stakeholders that matter are the employees and the public.

     If the employees are widely abused and the public suffers, there is no reason not to kill the corp.

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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Aug-2026 12:00:57 JST iced depresso

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     • Fi 🏳️‍⚧️
     @lispi314 @munin stocks are meant to track ownership of profits in an investment. the whole "must make line go up no matter what" comes from a collective fiction out of dodge v ford, which basically said "the board cannot knowingly waste shareholder capital" and everyone somehow let them run away with "the board must prioritize short term quarterlies above all."
     
     its one of those funny times that a massive sleight of hand took place and they benefit from nobody bothering to read what the judgement actually said.
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     LisPi (lispi314@udongein.xyz)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Aug-2026 12:00:59 JST LisPi

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Fi 🏳️‍⚧️
     @icedquinn @munin I just take corporate social responsibility to its logical conclusion.
     
     The economy exists to serve society. Corporations are parasites tolerated insofar as they contribute to that objective (yes, the implication is that they're unwanted).
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Aug-2026 12:16:07 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Fi 🏳️‍⚧️
     @lispi314 @munin i sorta don't, cause the individual steps fall out of rational things. organizational tools for who runs and owns the food plant are kind of banal.
     
     "actually investigate and send the managerial class to jail for crimes" is kind of a normal thing to want. "actively hurt shareholders just because" is kind of psychotic.
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     LisPi (lispi314@udongein.xyz)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Aug-2026 12:16:08 JST LisPi

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Fi 🏳️‍⚧️
     @icedquinn @munin I was indeed aware of most of that. I just think the underlying system in itself is harmful.
     
     The fiduciary duty meme is just additional harm.
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Aug-2026 12:41:25 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Fi 🏳️‍⚧️
     @lispi314 @munin you might want to be careful about that scope creep. project it too far and you're benefitting from various crimes and evils *right now*.
     
     there's a reason shiva destroying the universe in a fit of declaring ever more things corrupt is a story of warning.
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     LisPi (lispi314@udongein.xyz)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Aug-2026 12:41:27 JST LisPi

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Fi 🏳️‍⚧️
     @icedquinn @munin The shareholders as a class are deliberately perpetuating the capitalistic organization despite most likely being quite aware exactly why that's a bad thing.
     
     In many cases they indeed benefit from the proceeds of (corporate) crime (or other abuse and depredation of the society surrounding the corporation, regardless of legality) while bearing zero consequences for it (including especially the ones with consequential voting rights for the corporation's activities).
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Aug-2026 12:52:44 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Fi 🏳️‍⚧️
     @lispi314 @munin
     > An infinite negative doesn't make a positive. It's a silly comparison.
     its a cautionary story about a god showing up to destroy corrupt things but then decides more things are corrupt because they were related in some way to the corruption. by the end of the story the whole universe ends up corrupt because it was related to or didn't do enough to stop one of the other things.
     
     transitive judgement can enclose all of creation.
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     LisPi (lispi314@udongein.xyz)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Aug-2026 12:52:46 JST LisPi

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Fi 🏳️‍⚧️

     @icedquinn @munin

     project it too far and you're benefitting from various crimes and evils right now.

     I've certainly called for the cessation of a lot of that (entirely or in favor of ethical alternatives, depending on the specific ones). Unfortunately the only way to get anything remotely resembling a real vote for someone of my "status" is direct action and naturally things are designed to make that as impractical as possible.

     there's a reason shiva destroying the universe in a fit of declaring ever more things corrupt is a story of warning.

     An infinite negative doesn't make a positive. It's a silly comparison.

     Made all the worse by such an entity most likely having the capacity to meaningfully act to fix things (or nurture an ecosystem that would lead to such results) instead.

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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Aug-2026 13:18:36 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Fi 🏳️‍⚧️
     @lispi314 @munin i study cybernetics and i don't think you can quantify half of what you just said in that post.
     
     "opportunity cost" alone is defined by the set of all alternative outcomes which potentially involves a whole P=NP shindig, which is the opposite of "easily."
     
     complexity barely has any measurement metrics (and i've tried to find them); kolmogrov tried it (and its more of a theoretical device, since determining if some given kolmogrov complexity is truly the smallest is P=NP again), ashby tried it ("variety"), which is also somewhat theoretical because variety is counting up the number of state spaces to decide across which becomes very intractable.
     
     consequentialism is one of *three* ancient ethical schools that disagree with each other.
     
     "you are guilty of sin if you do not perform a maximum of 10 kolmogrovs to prevent a sin within 50,000 varieties of you" is technically definable but not actually applicable.
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     LisPi (lispi314@udongein.xyz)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Aug-2026 13:18:37 JST LisPi

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Fi 🏳️‍⚧️

     @icedquinn @munin Coordination cost/complexity and opportunity cost can easily serve as a delimitation, if one doesn't just consider consequentialist ethics before setting off on omnicide (they have a lot of issues, but even then they would serve to show it doesn't work; that regardless of the possibly unacceptable ethical cost of the action itself, the result is a failure anyway).

     Everything is related, true. That means very little without any understanding of practical system interactions.