Shauna
I like the term 'traumatic masculinity' more than 'toxic masculinity'.
It provides greater clarity to both cause and effect. "Toxic masculinity" doesn't snap into existence fully formed, it is caused by the traumatizing way we raise men. And its effects are that it further traumatizes - women, men, everyone.
This term also provides real guidance to what healthy masculinity looks like (tho that's not for me to figure out). What parts of masculinity are not trauma responses? Lean into those.
Shauna
Thanks, I'll check that paper out!
I wholeheartedly agree that trauma is not a sufficient cause for perpetration of violence, but I do think it's a necessary one (of interpersonal violence - my thoughts about its relationship to indirect & systemic violence are pretty unformed, though I think trauma has an important role to play there as well).
How are you using "psychopathologies"? Some people use it to mean "sociopathy", but usually it means all mental disorders.
Cat Hicks
@shauna some general references in this paper! https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/08862605231204897?casa_token=N_GX2TSUHeoAAAAA%3ASm3YpPGARUT3GsCg-t_VeJVp6ALhmumy3N1J_boPvfPlSC_jVZ-PCuP-r2UE3VKbdu4R9e6boItG
I totally buy that trauma is a very strong predictor for later violence for some cases, but not others. For instance many female populations have significantly higher rates of PTSD than many male populations but they do not react with the same level of violence. So it is not necessarily a *sufficient cause*, nor is the fact that it's a strong predictor a reason to say it's the *only* predictor, e.g., there is...
Cat Hicks
@shauna ...the existence of people who probably cannot form the same type of traumatic responses and who enact gendered violence, in psychopathologies. That's why I tend to fall on, if we are trying to have a term that encompasses the system, it's not just about describing a common pattern, but it's also about acknowledging perpetrators who aren't victims, so that's why "toxic" seems more universal than "traumatic" to me.
Shauna
yeah, I think I do probably have a significantly different definition of trauma than you. for example, I would class dehumanization (at the interpersonal level) as itself a trauma response. my understanding is that experience of trauma is one of the strongest predictors of the later perpetration of violence although if you have counter-evidence of this (or, generally, any favorite papers on the subject) I would be happy to read them.
Cat Hicks
@shauna yes I think that's right! this isn't my area of research, but by my read of the literature and evidence on this kind of cycle in psych, engaging in that dehumanization can be driven by multiple causes, including causes in the psychology of not-traumatized-people. Strong norms of oppression might ameliorate any sense of wrongdoing, too. So that's what I meant by "not true for many sources of gendered violence." Unless you have a wider definition for trauma than I do, which is possible!
Shauna
I want to make sure I understand you before responding.
You write: "the mechanism of dehumanization that is often at play allowing a perpetrator of violence to see their victims in a sweeping category-level as less than human and more objectlike, directly work to *shield* them from trauma"
I'm reading that as 'a perpetrator of violence dehumanizes their victims to shield themselves from [the pain/shame of their own actions, which would traumatize them if they acknowledged it]'.
Cat Hicks
@shauna I think this phrase reduces all forms of violence to some kind of victimization, which is demonstrably not true for many sources of gendered violence. "Toxic masculinity" is not about the men being toxic, but the system being toxic to people in it. I strongly disagree with labeling all gender-based power actions in the world as being the result of trauma. They're not. Nor would we explain all racism as a result of trauma vs a model with non-traumatized actor accountability in it.
Cat Hicks
@shauna e.g., the mechanism of dehumanization that is often at play allowing a perpetrator of violence to see their victims in a sweeping category-level as less than human and more objectlike, directly work to *shield* them from trauma. This is clear in domestic violence models
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