@7666@anemone a bunch of influential people not backing down on epstein at least. the young ones are starting to turn on trump and the grifters are in a pinch because they get money from israel and now israel is not popular
@anemone i don't understand how rank and file rightoids haven't abandoned ship. we got jews, pedophiles, virtue signalling grifters, and incompetents all in the same bandwagon which should be completely antithetical to their beliefs.
@7666@comp.lain.la we got jews, You mean the ones who support Israel, the country currently having "right to rape" protests?pedophiles, Self-explanatoryvirtue signalling griftersNot like this community isn't infamous for sexual assault and other depravity
@anemone@7666 this just... isnt true? most Jews who vaguely support Israel don't even support trump let alone are pedo grifters. Youre constantly blurring the line between anti-zionism and antisemitism with the "Jews are pedophiles" rhetoric. ive talked to you about it before, like how youve used fake graphs to supposedly prove it and yet you continue.
@anemone@7666 its not true for Zionists either though, and the majority of world Jews would be considered Zionists because they believe in Israeli sovereignty and the law of return. you can't just say something blatantly antisemitic and say "oh I mean Zionists not Jews". it just gives people ammunition to say antizionism is antisemitism, which I dont believe.
@anemone@7666 I dont support Israel but I can say from experience that most Jews who support the Israeli government only do so out of ignorance. and what you said wasnt "supporting Israel is evil" it was "trump supporters, Jews, pedophiles, and political grifters are *the same picture*". thats what you said. youre moving goalposts.
@georgia@netzsphaere.xyz@7666@comp.lain.la you can't just say something blatantly antisemitic and say "oh I mean Zionists not Jews"I didn't say that though, I specifically said the ones who support Israel and I'm sorry, but supporting a genocidal apartheid rogue state is inexcusable. You don't get to cry victim when people criticize you for supporting mass murder, torture, and rape.
@anemone@7666 upon reread you added the caveat but his initial post just said Jews, and even then saying Jews who support Israel are the same thing as pedophile grifters is antisemitism. a majority of Jews still support Israel, they just do so out of ignorance. they are usually not pedophiles or grifters (both classic judeophobic stereotypes).
@anemone@7666 you didnt say that though. you blamed all the pedophilia and political grift in the Republican party on Jews who support Israel by saying theyre "the same picture". thats antisemitic. pointing out that Israel is commiting genocide and apartheid isnt antisemitic, but comparing it to the holocaust is invidious and insensitive. the entire western media is complicit in denying that a genocide is ongoing, its normal to be ignorant about it and it certainly isnt an act of malice most of the time.
@georgia@netzsphaere.xyz@7666@comp.lain.la I think supporting a genocidal apartheid state that engages in systemic rape and torture is a bigger problem. I consider these people the same as german nazis who "didn't know about the death camps" (except today it's far to see the evidence of what Israel does than it was for people to see what Germany was doing). It's not antisemitism to point out what these people are doing, you're starting to sound like Greenblatt.
@anemone@7666 moving the goalposts again, of course Republican Jews support Israel, most Jews in america do. but I can point to you plenty of Republican Jews that I know personally who are just religiously conservative not pro child rape and grift. but you called "that community" equivalent to grifters and pedophiles!
@georgia@netzsphaere.xyz@7666@comp.lain.la I said thats why those groups support Republicans. If you can point me to a prominent Republican Jew who isn't a rabid Israel supporter I'd love to see it.
@anemone@7666@georgia zionists with money just switch to whichever party supports israel the hardest. and by party I mean the people making the decisions, not the actual members. young people are dissociating from Israel and a bunch of right wing orgs are following suit, so you're seeing a much bigger blatant disconnect in the party.
@7666@anemone@georgia I mean look at the entire zionist support for fundamentalist christians. yes they support israel because they think the messiah will come (and most jews will go to hell) but their money's still good so they cultivate the relationship
@sun@anemone@georgia not quite. the real far right types really don't like "da joos" and yet somehow still associate with the party in power funnelling money to them. its a conflict of interest that i haven't seen addressed.
not to say democrats don't do it either but they'd never associate as one is the difference.
@anemone@7666@georgia I know it's not new, Israel literally created the christian pro zionist movement as it exists today by funneling millions of dollars into propaganda targeted at churches. the christian zionist movement predates this but the wholesale switch of support in america is because of influence
@anemone@7666 I'm not twisting your words you said "they are the same picture" referring to Jews who support Israel, political grifters, and pedophiles. and now youve added another untruth, that every Republican is a pedophile. do you even take what you say seriously or is it all vituperation?
Also sorry, but if you are a Republican (of any ethnicity or religion) in 2025 you are pro-child rape. You can protest otherwise, but that just makes you a liar.
@georgia@netzsphaere.xyz@7666@comp.lain.la I'm not wrong, you just don't want to admit it. Many of these people lie about their position, to others, to themselves, but that doesn't change the material reality
@georgia@netzsphaere.xyz@7666@comp.lain.la I know what people DO, which is support a bunch of child rapists. When it comes to rape and torture, I don't really care what your justification for it is
@anemone@7666 "I'm not antisemitic when I say Jews (errrr zionists *cough*) love to rape and torture because theyre pure evil, I'm just against rape and torture!" yeah you see all your ideological opponents as ontologically evil so this conversation is headed nowhere.
@patchuun@7666@anemone theyre supporting him with their votes and in denial of all his wrongdoing, that doesnt make them pro child rape inherently. if it were truly proved that trump has raped children, he would have very few supporters. I'm sure of that. people hate child rape, thats one thing thats actually bipartisan. I try to assume good faith in trump supporters even though I hate trump.
@georgia@7666@anemone supporting something bad for "nuanced" reasons is still supporting something bad. voting for a child rapist because you thought he'd fix the economy (lol) is still voting for a child rapist
@georgia@7666@anemone the road to hell is paved with good intentions. maybe some people voted for him thinking project 2025 was just a liberal smear against him. doesn't make them any less culpable for getting him into power. it doesn't matter what someone thinks in their heart of hearts if their actions cause real-world harm.
@georgia@7666@anemone intention does matter, I'm not saying it doesn't. but if something you've supported turns out differently from your intent, I think that does place a responsibility on you to try to undo that damage
@georgia@anemone@patchuun so which philosophy aligns most closely to "i'm just going to say i'm antisemitic even though i'm not as a purely pragmatic exercise because it saves everyone the trouble of these conversations"
you can say “yeah, when you dig into the nuance theyre obviously doing things that make child rape happen more”, but that doesn’t say anything about what they believe or even what they think theyre doing
@azalea@7666@anemone@georgia yeah, I wouldn't use this logic for abstract/immaterial stuff like what doll is referring to. I'm also not saying anyone is ontologically evil and needs to be put to death or anything, mind. Just that I don't think they can wash their hands of something like that without making any kind of reparations for it
@patchuun@7666@anemone@georgia [although honestly the worse use of that logic is in cases other than this, where they arent even actually making things worse in the physical world, and the idea of “supporting something” is used to create fear of Impurity and as a moral bludgeon]
@anemone@7666@georgia pretty much, you can support a thing for xyz reason but if that reason produces another thing as well, you're sorta supporting that as well. whether that's personally upsetting is a whole different beast
@georgia@netzsphaere.xyz@7666@comp.lain.la Again with making up things I didn't say, but I agree that if you want to debate the nuance of supporting child rape, we're never going to agree
@patchuun@7666@anemone@georgia azalea doesnt really beleive in “washing hands” of something being a thing or the idea that something bad can make someone “unclean”
it thinks they should* eventually go “oh that was kinda stupid”, if they dont then theyre hiding from something thats true, but other than that it doesnt really matter (other than if they keep hiding from it for the rest of their lives and cant acknowledge the entirety of the world)
its kinda interesting because its maybe somewhat similar to what you believe but azalea feels like putting it this way is useful, especially when most people are used to/expect the idea of “have to be Pure otherwise u Die”
@azalea@7666@anemone@georgia this example does presume that the character who's been mind controlled is no longer being mind controlled, though. in this scenario I think the party should try to save them from being mind controlled (which I think could include telling them directly "you are trying to murder your friends and allies. you have to stop", just like telling someone directly "you are voting for a child rapist", or "you are supporting an apartheid state committing a genocide"), but if they're actively being attacked they're still justified in defending themselves
@patchuun@7666@anemone@georgia like imagine like, an anime plot or something where someone gets mind controlled to see all their allies as monsters, and fights them
saying “theyre morally culpable for doing that” is just… silly, right? or “oh, but they supported the main villain, they support [obviously bad thing the villain did]”, thats also silly, right?
…and the real kicker is, if the other party members responded like that, it wouldn’t help the party, it would make things wayyy worse like, they already know what the controlled character did wasnt good, that character probably already feels guilty about it, is it really gonna help to shun them and just… drive them away? (not even the “oh lul they join the villain again” meme, even just… being driven into solitude and then eventually dying. party down a member for the whole rest of the adventure.) [edit: i mean ok i know you in particular wouldnt wanna drive them away, but like. idk i feel like thats what the shame usually does]
this is a lot of how azalea views situations like this
@7666@anemone@georgia@sun it’s just how the two party system works. for them it’s either that or to jump ship to the party that gives them absolutely nothing they want.
or go third party and completely abandon any pretense of having any political influence.
@patchuun@7666@anemone@georgia the party’s probably gonna say something like “we’re your friends, remember us?” or “remember, they [the villain] burned our homes! [or something]”, or maybe “youre helping them kill us all” but theyre not gonna say “you support killing us all” or “youre responsible for this” or etc
and yea, it was even thinking like “you dont just tell them ‘youre bad’, you beat them in a fight (which theyre obviously gonna start) and get them to snap out of it!”
…honestly a lot of this is mainly just, “azalea realllllly doesnt like the word ‘support’ in these contexts” it has this really nasty two-meanings thing, where it has one meaning that’s true and easily defensible [they made (bad things) more likely] and a meaning thats awful and harder to defend [they, as a person, desire these bad things to happen (and most people will usually take away “they deserve suffering if they dont Repent™” as well)], and no one distinguishes between the two meanings it makes it so that a discussion ostensibly about practicalities starts having implications about peoples internal worldview and/or character and that gets hairy Fast
@7666@anemone@georgia@pettanko third party votes hurt democrats so as long as you’re up front this is kind of an accelaerstionist position (I endorse it)
That doesn’t matter. What matters is what you make people think.
It is especially egregious that you called comparison to the Holocaust invidious and insensitive. It was the quintessential “it’s ok when my team does it” nonsense that makes people assume you’re arguing in bad faith.