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   veff :trash: (veff@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 22-Aug-2025 04:53:22 JST veff :trash:

   Not to start yet another "faith vs works" religion hellthread, but I've been thinking about faith and how there are two totally different definitions for it that people don't really pin down.

   There are some people who take faith to mean "belief as to consider factual" which is seen most obviously when church members say "I know X/Y/Z is true."

   Then you have faith as "hoping things are true and orienting yourself as if they are" which you can see in a lot of missionary work, doing things with the faith that God is working through them.

   Ultimately I think the whole argument of faith vs works isn't one slider where you fall to one side or the other, but rather two sliders which can be harmful if either are turned too far up or down.

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     veff :trash: (veff@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 22-Aug-2025 04:53:19 JST veff :trash:

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     • Woodshop ?
     @WoodshopHandman >In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
     Vs
     >The Dao that can be told is not the eternal Dao The name that can be named is not the eternal Name.
     They are explicitly contradictory in the very first verses, but then they both continue on to describe each other in shocking clarity. In the Tao Te Ching, paragraphs 7, 10, 25, 50, 51, 52 and 62 all seem to be direct affirmations that they are speaking of the same thing, with 1, 4, 5 and 14 being refutations, and 34 and 49 could go either way.
     
     I did a quick re-read before responding and I think it's worth a leaf through. If you have a half hour to spare, look up Stephen Mitchell's "translation" interpretation, and replace "Tao" with "God" and "Master" with "Christ" and you'll see what I mean. actually, maybe I'll just reply inline to this with the aforementioned paragraphs so I'm not giving you homework. one second
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     Woodshop ? (woodshophandman@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 22-Aug-2025 04:53:20 JST Woodshop ?

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     @veff >they can't both be right
     Why not? IIRC, the Celts used the symbol of the cross for centuries without knowing why or what it meant before Christianity reached their shores. Traces of Christianity can be seen and felt all over the globe.
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     veff :trash: (veff@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 22-Aug-2025 04:53:20 JST veff :trash:

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     • Woodshop ?

     @WoodshopHandman Simply put, The Dao is formless but Logos is Word made flesh, which are totally mutually exclusive. The Dao avoids the is/ought problem by never addressing the ought- it just is. Logos focuses on ethics far more, and it leads to beliefs like iusnaturalism. The Dao does not justify itself, but Logos can be seen as how we structure and rationalize it in ways comprehensible to us. Downstream Daoist thought becomes something you can harness like Chi, but Logos isn't grounded in the material so much as the logical and spiritual.

     Ultimately I can't believe in Daoism because I think that beauty actually bridges the is/ought. It might not be Natural Law per sé (it's not universal nor written in the hearts of men) but it is objective and transcends humans. Even an animal will chew off it's infected limb.

     The issue then is that I'm stuck with Logos, the definition of which has evolved from pre-Christian to early-Christian to modern-Christian and each interpretation has it's own issues which make me think that the capital T Truth is something that has yet to be grasped, or something that either wasn't or cannot be articulated. Is it Christ? That provides more questions than answers.

     Whatever it is, I'm too tired to find it. I don't know if I'll ever be lucid enough.

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     veff :trash: (veff@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 22-Aug-2025 04:53:21 JST veff :trash:

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     • Woodshop ?
     @WoodshopHandman >If you KNOW God is real and good, you'll at least try do good works, though the volume and scale of your works don't necessarily define your faith itself.
     Of course, which is why I'm not really rehashing the traditional faith vs works argument here, but you already know that.
     >I think the question in both cases, for someone who doesn't believe but wants that sense of faith, is "Why do I find myself unable to really believe, even if/though I want to?" and learning to address the answer to that.
     Beyond the two reasons you list (although leaning heavily on #2), I also have a lot of problems with "what's good isn't unique, and what's unique isn't good" when it comes to theology as a whole. It feels like I'm cherry picking what I believe and what I don't, when it's implied you either gotta believe all of it or none of it.
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     veff :trash: (veff@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 22-Aug-2025 04:53:21 JST veff :trash:

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     • Woodshop ?

     @WoodshopHandman Or to expound with a more concrete example, I believe that John's description of Logos is, to me, the single most convincing piece of scripture in the entire Bible. It intuitively makes sense of a concept that otherwise feels clouded in parables and stories meant to herd the crowd. When I think of what I still can believe, I think to Logos.

     However, there's surprising overlap between Logos and the Dao, and they can't both be right, so I either need to pick one with the whimsical middle-eastern window dressing I don't really believe, or else the one with the silly far-east window dressing I also don't believe.

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     veff :trash: (veff@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 22-Aug-2025 04:53:22 JST veff :trash:

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     I don't like definition 1 because it directly creates the panic one feels during a crisis of faith. If you struggle to believe, your eternal salvation is suddenly on the line, and you can't just pretend harder to make that go away. This definition gives a lot of credence to the idea of predestination.

     I don't like definition 2 because it tends to make actions more transactional, like "I don't really believe in you, but if I keep praying and acting like I do I'll get into heaven, right?" This definition is comforting for the unbeliever who wants to believe, but it falls flat precisely because they don't believe.

     There needs to be some middle ground.

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     Woodshop ? (woodshophandman@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 22-Aug-2025 04:53:22 JST Woodshop ?

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     @veff I don't really see the two definitions as mutually exclusive. In fact, as far as I can tell, there's quite a lot of overlap. If you KNOW God is real and good, you'll at least try do good works, though the volume and scale of your works don't necessarily define your faith itself.
     I think the question in both cases, for someone who doesn't believe but wants that sense of faith, is "Why do I find myself unable to really believe, even if/though I want to?" and learning to address the answer to that. With almost everyone I talk to, it's either due to a sense of shame for something they feel they've done wrong (pride) so they reject the idea of faith/God as a coping mechanism, or it's some sort of issue with trusting what they can't see/control. Both reasons are understandable, but also surmountable.
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     veff :trash: (veff@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 22-Aug-2025 04:54:43 JST veff :trash:

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     • Woodshop ?

     @WoodshopHandman Too lazy to rewrite it all, but like I said before, replace "Tao" with "God" and "Master" with "Christ" and these passages resonate a lot with my own understanding of God much in the same way that John describes The Word.

     《The Tao is infinite, eternal. Why is it eternal? It was never born; thus it can never die. Why is it infinite? It has no desires for itself; thus it is present for all beings.

     The Master stays behind; that is why she is ahead. She is detached from all things; that is why she is one with them. Because she has let go of herself, she is perfectly fulfilled.》

     《There was something formless and perfect before the universe was born. It is serene. Empty. Solitary. Unchanging. Infinite. Eternally present. It is the mother of the universe. For lack of a better name, I call it the Tao.

     It flows through all things, inside and outside, and returns to the origin of all things.

     The Tao is great. The universe is great. Earth is great. Man is great. These are the four great powers.

     Man follows the earth. Earth follows the universe. The universe follows the Tao. The Tao follows only itself.》

     《The Master gives himself up to whatever the moment brings. He knows that he is going to die, and her has nothing left to hold on to: no illusions in his mind, no resistances in his body. He doesn't think about his actions; they flow from the core of his being. He holds nothing back from life; therefore he is ready for death, as a man is ready for sleep after a good day's work.》

     《Every being in the universe is an expression of the Tao. It springs into existence, unconscious, perfect, free, takes on a physical body, lets circumstances complete it. That is why every being spontaneously honors the Tao.

     The Tao gives birth to all beings, nourishes them, maintains them, cares for them, comforts them, protects them, takes them back to itself, creating without possessing, acting without expecting, guiding without interfering. That is why love of the Tao is in the very nature of things.》

     《In the beginning was the Tao. All things issue from it; all things return to it.

     To find the origin, trace back the manifestations. When you recognize the children and find the mother, you will be free of sorrow.

     If you close your mind in judgements and traffic with desires, your heart will be troubled. If you keep your mind from judging and aren't led by the senses, your heart will find peace.

     Seeing into darkness is clarity. Knowing how to yield is strength. Use your own light and return to the source of light. This is called practicing eternity.》