It's a me, Mauro
I managed to move to #AwesomeWM from #dwm, after discovering that #suckless folks are a bunch of nazis.
Also, I had some stability issues that with all the C patching were hard to debug.
I gotta say dwm's workflow and defaults are just great, though, and I HAD to replicate most of it in Awesome.
It's not a minimalistic wm, it has so many features by default but such a great documentation though.
The problem is that I'm definitely not a fan of #lua, but I'll take it over nazis anytime. #linux
Anthk
@ramin_hal9001 @mauro Most of #Emacs are anti-fascists because Lisp promotes hacking and avoiding rigid structures. Interactive, REPL hacking does not match a rigid structure modulo the OS for stability. Suckless it's bad because configuration should be handled like cwm does; a simple config file with simple values and that's it.
Even Emacs' roots (ITS) were made to give computing skills to everyone (open access, no permissions unlike Multics, Unix or VMS).
Ramin Honary
@mauro hmm, I can’t say I am too surprised to learn about the Suckless team being a bunch of Neo-Nazis, though that is still disappointing. (Where did you hear about that, by the way?)
Since switching to Emacs I have lost all interest in Suckless-like tool sets which attempt to all be minimal and written in C. I started to realize that the idea of trying to write “minimal” apps in C according to the Unix philosophy which are then composed together with some amalgam of scripting languages like Bash and Lua (or Python) was something of a fool’s errand. Really if you want tools that are minimal, easy to understand, and easy to compose into new workflows, what you should be using is a programming language with a good interactive programming environment all licensed under the GPL. So Emacs Lisp and the Emacs editor, or maybe Smalltalk running the Glamorous IDE, although that one is MIT licensed.
In my experience, most Emacs folk are staunchly anti-fascist.
Anthk
@ramin_hal9001 @mauro Said this, I know people from Bitreich and such and it would be dumb to be called nazis because the have people and contributos from all over the world.
I see more actual troubles with suckless' people promoting minimalism and a turf like Surf when Luakit and Vimb are as minimal and far superior from a Unix lover perspective (easy config, vi keys). Ditto with XTerm vs ST. Even sacc from bitreich allows the gopher PAGER to be set as an env variable.
EDIT: s,and as, are as
Anthk
@ramin_hal9001 @mauro Now I remember RMS had an open Emacs session in the TTY (Trisquel's KMS framebuffer actually) and he didn't care so much.
I see Emacs as a tool to give freedoms to Unix before security. Altough I see GNU/Linux as 'handicapped' as a platform. True freedom for the users comes from Hurd, were the user can do tons of now-root-restricted-hacks tasks without issues. Mounting devices, internet connections a la FUSE...
Anthk
@ramin_hal9001 @mousebot ITS and openness for sure should have ended lots of prejudices.
Ramin Honary
“John McCarthy (inventor of lisp) was an angry arsehole of a republican, a hawk on the middle east”
@mousebot I am not at all surprised, and very disappointed, to learn about this now. I had never considered McCarthy’s politics before, but a lot of successful people like him of his generation are just like that.
Computers were originally invented as weapons of war, for code breaking, and for computing trajectories on artillery and rockets, for calculating equations related to building nuclear weapons, for building fighter planes, and dominating outer space. The peaceful, consumer applications of personal computers were incidental to this purpose. They still are; personal computers and smart phones now only exist to gather data on people to control and exploit them, especially with propaganda.
Fortunately, good people can use computers for peaceful purposes, as a medium of artistic expression, as a means for learning about the world, as a means of discovering new science and mathematics, even for political organizing.
But this may not last forever, as the fascists continue to increase their power and control over people, they may make it illegal to use computers for peaceful purposes, they may require everyone to use proprietary operating systems which only ever spy on them. As Cory Doctorow says, we must “seize the means of computation” if we want a peaceful and prosperous future.
mousebot
@ramin_hal9001 @anthk interesting discussion.
i would also like to believe it is true, but don't really believe it is.
John McCarthy (inventor of lisp) was an angry arsehole of a republican, a hawk on the middle east, hater of supposedly lesser peoples, believer in US supremacy, you can go read his blog to find out.
but also, recently, it dawned on me that the free software idea was just interactive programming translated into social terms.
lots of people like to hack the good hack (cf. guix, spritely, ramin yourself), but also the lisp curse can possibly align with more of a libertarian lone wolf attitude, no? (obviously not always, i'm just free associating.)
basically the politics of most of the entire IT world is rank, ever since eugenicists invented transistors... (computers are basically microfascism, cf. IBM / nazism, racial terror in the US likewise)
yet at the same time, making stuff by programming rewards curiosity, open-mindedness, self-reflection, humble persistence...
it's something that accompanies me in all my programming misadventures...
Ramin Honary
“Most of #Emacs are anti-fascists because Lisp promotes hacking and avoiding rigid structures. Interactive, REPL hacking does not match a rigid structure modulo the OS for stability.”
@anthk that is an interesting hypothesis. I am not sure if I believe it is true, but I would like it if it were true. I like your idea.
I get the sense that people who like Emacs are anti-fascist because anti-fascists like Lisp, and I think the reason they like Lisp is because they have an appreciation for rules and laws which are minimal, elegant, and allow for beautiful behavior to emerge within the ecosystem.
Fascists, on the other hand, want to control and dominate, and they strongly prefer using brute force and violence. Fascists see computers as a weapon and as a means to maximizing their political power. They don’t appreciate things of beauty or minimalism (like Lisp), they are only interested in using the most effective tool to achieve their end goals.
Anthk
@superketchup @ramin_hal9001 Yes; but in case of Emacs you can head to a function/Elisp file instantly and start hacking up things.
superketchup :vivaldi_red:
@ramin_hal9001 @anthk The question I'm generally asking myself is: do functional programming paradigms change the way we think differently than imperative approaches do?
superketchup :vivaldi_red:
@anthk @ramin_hal9001 I see it this way: many YouTubers later switch to a pure functional language, Haskell, as an evolutionary step. Imperative approaches then become irrelevant, leading to a different worldview: humans are a class in themselves, not just "if-then" conditions. This results in different political views than the majority.
Anthk
@superketchup @ramin_hal9001
Lisp = change stuff at runtime. Experiments.
Unix = automate with pipes. Multiprocessing? Xargs, exec() and fork() are cheap.
GNU as originally concepted with Hurd= solid microkernel core, Unix based for combat, but it extends it giving freedoms for the users, up to the point to be able their own daemons.
Emacs would be *the* both a shell and UI. GNUs would rest on automated MTA's as daemons and so on.
Anthk
@superketchup @ramin_hal9001
Lisp = change stuff at runtime. Experiments.
Unix = automate with pipes. Multiprocessing? Xargs, exec() and fork() are cheap.
GNU as originally concepted with Hurd= solid microkernel core, Unix based for compat, but it extends it giving freedoms for the users, up to the point to be able to run their own daemons without root.
Emacs would be *the* both a shell and UI. GNUs would rest on automated MTA's as daemons and so on. Instead of pipes, you would use Elisp.
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