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1. Embed this notice
   🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 01:58:52 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

   • MikeDunnAuthor

   @MikeDunnAuthor

   Sure, as long as that rent is a shared room, and the groceries consist of chicken every night... which you can off a minimum wage job.

   • Embed this notice
     rootfake (rootfake@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 18-May-2025 04:33:17 JST rootfake

     in reply to

     • MikeDunnAuthor

     @freemo @MikeDunnAuthor Minimum wage is supposed to be a living wage. Frankly, food and housing should be freely available to all, but at an absolute fucking minimum, a person working full time should be able to afford their own place and decent food, which is completely impossible at min wage in the US right now. Fuck the protestant work ethic and the religious fanatics it rode in on.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Sunday, 18-May-2025 04:33:17 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • MikeDunnAuthor
     • rootfake

     @rootfake

     > Minimum wage is supposed to be a living wage

     and it shouldn't be, thats the point. It disproportionately harms the poorest least skilled of the work force, it shouldnt exist at all, let alone act as a living wage.

     > Frankly, food and housing should be freely available to all

     Absolutely agree it should be, and minimum wage should also be abolished.

     > but at an absolute fucking minimum, a person working full time should be able to afford their own place and decent food

     Only if that full time is **worth** decent food and your own place. People deserve food and an education to be able to gaint he skills to be worth a home and decent food, it is not the obligation of anyone paying someone money to do a task to provide that. It is the governments responsibility to create a healthy economy and valuable workers through access to free education, training, and sometimes welfare.

     > which is completely impossible at min wage in the US right now

     Entirely possible, for people who are skilled enough to be worth the income needed to afford these things. The fact that many people exist who do not have sufficiently marketable skills is the problem needing solving, not minimum wage.

     > Fuck the protestant work ethic and the religious fanatics it rode in on.

     Has nothing to do with work ethic, bother understanding a persons position first.

     @MikeDunnAuthor

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 19-May-2025 03:45:45 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • MikeDunnAuthor
     • rootfake
     • Aiono

     @aiono

     Because we already know from the data that minimum wage causes the poorest least skilled to not be able to find work, typically replaced by more skilled individuals. You can see the attached graph from a peer reviewed journal demonstrating this.

     In addition to the data clearly showing this fact, its also common sense. Companies hire people based on the value they provide. If you dont provide enough value to be worth your wage, you wont get a job. Setting a minimum wage just makes it illegal to hire people who do not produce value great enough to be worth their hourly rate. The end result is you effectively make it illegal to hire the least skilled in society, forcing people who are already desperate and need work, and who dont make enough to loose their job entirely and be unhirable, effectively causing them to starve to death.

     Obviously that is not a solution, it only makes their situation worse. Both the established scientific data, as well as just basic common sense clearly shows this.

     Now how do you actually solve the problem, easy, the state pays to get these people an education or training to actually make their value high enough they are hireable at a living wage.

     @rootfake @MikeDunnAuthor

   • Embed this notice
     Aiono (aiono@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 19-May-2025 03:45:46 JST Aiono

     in reply to

     • MikeDunnAuthor
     • rootfake

     @freemo @rootfake @MikeDunnAuthor how abolishing minimum wage will amek the situation any better? Minimum wage doesn't limit employer from paying more but only paying less.

   • Embed this notice
     Nicky🦨✌️ (skoombidoombis@masto.ai)'s status on Monday, 19-May-2025 03:57:45 JST Nicky🦨✌️

     in reply to

     • Aiono

     @aiono you’re arguing with someone who is presenting evidence from a vacuum—they’re pretending that taxes and other things like healthcare aren’t in budgets. Minimum wage is part of a bigger system that has been systematically destroyed so for many the next logical step is to remove minimum wage. They think they can hide puzzle pieces and still finish the puzzle without those pieces. IMO regression never solves anything.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 19-May-2025 03:57:45 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Aiono
     • Nicky🦨✌️

     @skoombidoombis @aiono

     A vacuum? I presented peer reviewed data/chart that shows clearly that it isnt "in the budget" and that actual real world harm occurs to the poorest and least skilled as minimum wage increases. Thats pretty much the exact opposite of arguing from a vacuum.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 19-May-2025 04:03:04 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Aiono
     • Nicky🦨✌️

     @skoombidoombis

     Whatever you might say doesnt change the undeniable fact. Minimum wages causes the least skilled people to become unemployed, and the higher minimum wage is, the more rampant the unemployment that explicitly effects these low-skilled workers happens to be.

     inb4: I am not claiming the **overall** unemployment rate goes down, only the unemployment among the poorest and least skilled people, which is completely contrary to the purpose.

     You can argue whatever mental gymnastics you want to try to make minimum wage sound like a good thing. But when all is said and done the undeniable fact is more minimum wage means the poorest least skilled people suffer more. We have the data that proves that.

     @aiono

   • Embed this notice
     Nicky🦨✌️ (skoombidoombis@masto.ai)'s status on Monday, 19-May-2025 04:03:05 JST Nicky🦨✌️

     in reply to

     • Aiono

     @aiono they’re also ignoring the real fact that salaries and such were based upon minimum wage. The government set the limit for unskilled labor so then they had to create skilled wage brackets. The private sector then has to compete with the public sector and they must offer more than what the government is offering right? I hate these let’s look at the data arguments that pretend policy doesn’t help create that data.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 19-May-2025 04:14:59 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Aiono
     • Nicky🦨✌️

     @skoombidoombis @aiono

     And yet the peer reviewed scientific evidence clearly shows the exact opposite is true, that as minimum wage increases, those at or below minimum wage (those with the lowest education) **lose** work and pay.

     The difference here is I am speaking from clear evidence, regardless of my personal views of how it would work. The evidence clearly shows us already what happens, we cant just make up our own fantasy and pretend thats the reality.

   • Embed this notice
     Nicky🦨✌️ (skoombidoombis@masto.ai)'s status on Monday, 19-May-2025 04:15:01 JST Nicky🦨✌️

     in reply to

     • Aiono

     @aiono

     Here’s an example. It’s 1975 you’re ibm and want the best computer coder. That person works for nasa earning a government paycheck & benefits package. You will have to offer a better deal than nasa AND compensate for the extra private sector stress of making sure the work is profitable to ibm—also the private sector lowers job security. Get rid of the government’s minimum standards just ensures that people will get paid less in the private sector.

   • Embed this notice
     Aiono (aiono@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 19-May-2025 04:59:47 JST Aiono

     in reply to

     • MikeDunnAuthor
     • rootfake

     @freemo @rootfake @MikeDunnAuthor Okay if you just increase the minimum salary and do nothing else, obviously that will lead to companies to not hire "less productive" people. But minimum salary by definition is just enough to sustain yourself. Just removing it won't help either. As you said, either people should be supported by the state to get "more productive" or maybe companies shouldn't profit outrageously from workers.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 19-May-2025 04:59:47 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • MikeDunnAuthor
     • rootfake
     • Aiono

     @aiono @rootfake @MikeDunnAuthor

     Absolutely, the underlying problem of having low-skill individuals whose skills are not marketable to sustain a living wage is a real problem. We know minimum wage makes this problem worse, so we can of course easily argue to abolish it, but while that wont make the problem worse, it also wont fix it.

     As I stated elsewhere to truly address the problem then abolishing minimum wage is only the first step. The next step is to ensure people have access to high quality welfare programs that 1) keep them fed and healthy in the interim, and 2) provide good training programs to ensure their skill sets are marketable so they can make a living wage.

     You cant start fixing a problem until you stop doing the things that contribute to the problem, so we cant really fix the problem until we take the minimal first step of abolishing minimum wage, though I absolutely support the fact that it isnt the only step that needs to be taken.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 19-May-2025 05:05:38 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Aiono
     • Nicky🦨✌️

     @skoombidoombis

     > do you have the peer reviewed data for no minimum wage policies? What does the data show in an economy like for example the US without workers rights laws and minimum wage and such?

     Since I would never promote the idea that we should abolish all workers rights of any kind, and honestly thats an odd ask, I do not have such data, nor have any real reason to aquire it since I would never promote that scenario and think it is rather obvious we wouldnt want such a thing.

     > And how education funding affects workers skill?

     My stance is that we provide all sorts of worker training, that includes trade school, higher education, and simple work training and other education.

     but sure, if you'd like some data on how this kind of training can improve ones wages without invoking minimum wage, I can certainly get some for you. But that seems like quite the odd thing to question, are you trying to claim that training and skills has no effect on ones wage?

     > Stop using numbers like a cudgel.

     Its only a crudgel when they disagree with your world view. I am using numbers to describe reality, not a curdgel to promote a world view. Most of my life I strongly supported minimum wage until I bothered to look and see if it actually helped (the numbers), and they dont. When I see people suffering I care far more about ending their suffering than selling some agenda about how I think the world should work.

     @aiono

   • Embed this notice
     Nicky🦨✌️ (skoombidoombis@masto.ai)'s status on Monday, 19-May-2025 05:05:39 JST Nicky🦨✌️

     in reply to

     • Aiono

     @freemo @aiono @freemo @aiono do you have the peer reviewed data for no minimum wage policies? What does the data show in an economy like for example the US without workers rights laws and minimum wage and such? And how education funding affects workers skill? Stop using numbers like a cudgel. It’s like arguing the US is a Christian nation b/c the money says so and ignoring the when/why of that fact.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 19-May-2025 05:19:55 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • MikeDunnAuthor
     • rootfake
     • Aiono

     @rootfake @aiono @MikeDunnAuthor

     So when I said you should bother to understand a persons viewpoint before making statements you just double down...

     You said:

     > the exact ideology you're espousing. It grew out of the "if you don't work, you don't eat" shit

     And yet despite your claim it is the "exact ideology you're espousing" My own words explicitly say the exact opposite of that. My own words at multiple times. For example my exact words (in a response I tagged you) was:

     > The next step is to ensure people have access to high quality welfare programs that 1) keep them fed and healthy in the interim

     Funny that, the exact **opposite** your claiming my stance is.

     Again, before you start slinging accusations or judgements bother reading the basics of a conversation first, otherwise your just wasting everyones time with faux offense over fantasies of arguments I never made.

   • Embed this notice
     rootfake (rootfake@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 19-May-2025 05:19:56 JST rootfake

     in reply to

     • MikeDunnAuthor
     • Aiono

     @freemo @aiono @MikeDunnAuthor
     okay, so first off, the protestant work ethic is a very specific thing, which both has nothing to do with actual work ethic, and is, at least seemingly anyway, the exact ideology you're espousing. It grew out of the "if you don't work, you don't eat" shit that the early Virginia colonists believed, and is largely why many Americans believe "you'll get ahead through hard work" even though that is *demonstrably false*.

   • Embed this notice
     rootfake (rootfake@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 19-May-2025 05:22:38 JST rootfake

     in reply to

     • MikeDunnAuthor
     • Aiono

     @freemo @aiono @MikeDunnAuthor
     Secondly, do you recognize that *someone* still needs to do min wage jobs, and that those people deserve to not be living in squalor? Cause you can't have everyone upskill, there are only so many positions available. Like, if everyone becomes a coder, or a plumber, or an engineer, guess what, those stop being "high skill jobs" (which is a BS term btw, min wage jobs require skills too), and unless we automate them all away, min wage jobs still need doing.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 19-May-2025 05:22:38 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • MikeDunnAuthor
     • rootfake
     • Aiono

     @rootfake

     I never claimed minimum wage jobs dont need to be done. No one is claiming those jobs should be abolished. The problem is when you have far too many low-skilled people then the laws of supply and demand dictate low-wage, everyone wants to to do it. When you have high skilled people most of them wont want to do low-skilled work, so the demand for doing the work goes down, and thus the pay goes up.

     No one is suggesting **everyone** needs to be "upskill", only the people who are capable of it until you drive the wages up enough to not need to "upskill" people further.

     No one is suggesting all people need to be coders and plumbers and engineers, just that more people need to be.

     @aiono @MikeDunnAuthor

   • Embed this notice
     rootfake (rootfake@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 19-May-2025 05:46:34 JST rootfake

     in reply to

     • MikeDunnAuthor
     • Aiono

     @freemo @aiono @MikeDunnAuthor
     I didn't mean you believed in that part, you obviously didn't, It's why I specifically said it *grew out of it*. the modern iteration is about believing, effectively, that hard work brings good fortune, and focusing a person's worth on their employment, it's a pretty common thread throughout most American views on employment. It also tends to come with the whole "people who don't do {job i think is valuable} should have less to motivate them to work harder."