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   Alfred M. Szmidt (amszmidt@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 00:38:06 JST Alfred M. Szmidt

   #FORTH is a #LISP (neither are #Scheme). Prove me wrong.

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     Alfred M. Szmidt (amszmidt@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 00:46:16 JST Alfred M. Szmidt

     in reply to

     • Kristopher Johnson

     @oldmankris Isn't Lisp a forward Forth? Operations go first in Lisp, last in Forth.

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     Kristopher Johnson (oldmankris@mastodon.xyz)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 00:46:17 JST Kristopher Johnson

     in reply to

     @amszmidt Forth is a backwards Lisp.

     Alfred M. Szmidt repeated this.
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     smlckz (smlckz@fe.disroot.org)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 01:08:41 JST smlckz

     in reply to

     @amszmidt Remove that ‘a’ and then it’s fine. There’s neither a Forth, nor a Lisp. Both language families, I suppose, have similar ideals, but executed in extremely different manner. I can not exactly recall who put it this way, but I’ll borrow a part of their words and sentiment in the following: Forths are Lisps with empathy towards the machine, and Lisps are Forths with respect towards the theory. This is why I think the families of languages are used in different domains and rarely interact with each other; like two independent civilizations (“ecosystems”) with little trade or travel between them.

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     Alfred M. Szmidt (amszmidt@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 01:08:48 JST Alfred M. Szmidt

     in reply to

     • smlckz

     @smlckz A nice philosophical take. Have a CONS cell. I disagree that Lisp is towards theory, Lisp is very close to the machine -- I'd argue, closer than Forth!

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     Lars Brinkhoff (larsbrinkhoff@mastodon.sdf.org)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 03:17:57 JST Lars Brinkhoff

     in reply to

     @amszmidt First you make your argument. I'm willing to humor your unsound reasoning. Then I can tell you why you're wrong.

     Alfred M. Szmidt repeated this.
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     Lars Brinkhoff (larsbrinkhoff@mastodon.sdf.org)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 03:17:59 JST Lars Brinkhoff

     in reply to

     @amszmidt Did I troll it right?

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     Alfred M. Szmidt (amszmidt@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 03:43:10 JST Alfred M. Szmidt

     in reply to

     • crc

     @crc You argue from a serious point, thus you missed the nonsense.

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     crc (crc@mastodon.bsd.cafe)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 03:43:11 JST crc

     in reply to

     @amszmidt As a user of #forth, I disagree, but am curious; do you have any arguments for this position?

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     Alfred M. Szmidt (amszmidt@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 13:47:01 JST Alfred M. Szmidt

     in reply to

     • smlckz

     @smlckz Depends on what you consider the machine. ;-). I used to program the HC11 ... lovely little chip.

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     smlckz (smlckz@fe.disroot.org)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 13:47:03 JST smlckz

     in reply to
     @amszmidt You know, that position is not easy to defend, when you are made aware of these:
     
     https://pygmy.utoh.org/3ins4th.html — "3-instruction" Forth for the 68HC11
     
     http://www.aholme.co.uk/Mk2/Architecture.htm — Mark 2 FORTH Computer
     
     and so on..
     
     You can, however, argue for your proposition, with these:
     
     https://tromp.github.io/cl/cl.html — Binary lambda calculus
     
     https://justine.lol/sectorlisp/
     
     https://t3x.org/klisp/index.html — Kilo LISP
     
     etc.
     
     But, if you are feeling especially brave, you take your case and argue with the legends in comp.lang.forth (as well as comp.lang.lisp)
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     Lars Brinkhoff (larsbrinkhoff@mastodon.sdf.org)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 14:11:14 JST Lars Brinkhoff

     in reply to

     • crc

     @amszmidt @crc I think there are some serious and interesting points to be made. What is Lisp? What is Forth?

     For the former, probably something about cons cells, atoms, functions, and S-expressions. I'd like this to include Scheme but exclude Dylan. But there's an angle where Scheme is kind of like the Esperanto of Lisp; it wants to make a clean break, so in this sense it's not part of the continuous Lisp lineage.

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     Alfred M. Szmidt (amszmidt@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 14:12:19 JST Alfred M. Szmidt

     in reply to

     • Lars Brinkhoff
     • crc

     @larsbrinkhoff Lisp just Cons cells and symbols/fixnums, and a hand full operations.

     @crc

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     Lars Brinkhoff (larsbrinkhoff@mastodon.sdf.org)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 14:12:20 JST Lars Brinkhoff

     in reply to

     • crc

     @amszmidt @crc As for Forth, two stacks, dictionary (another stack if you will), a handful of primitives, syntax made of tokens separated by whitespace.

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     Alfred M. Szmidt (amszmidt@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 14:14:28 JST Alfred M. Szmidt

     in reply to

     • Lars Brinkhoff
     • crc

     @larsbrinkhoff @crc we are all wrong.

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     Lars Brinkhoff (larsbrinkhoff@mastodon.sdf.org)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 14:14:29 JST Lars Brinkhoff

     in reply to

     • crc

     @amszmidt @crc See, you're already wrong! That was easy.

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     jnpn (jnpn@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 15:48:51 JST jnpn

     in reply to

     @amszmidt lispless lisp :p

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     Alfred M. Szmidt (amszmidt@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 15:55:39 JST Alfred M. Szmidt

     in reply to

     • Simon Brooke

     @simon_brooke IF ELSE THAN and COND are equivalent.

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     Simon Brooke (simon_brooke@mastodon.scot)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 15:55:40 JST Simon Brooke

     in reply to

     @amszmidt Lisp has all of

     * APPLY
     * CAR
     * CDR
     * COND
     * CONS
     * EQ
     * EVAL
     * READ

     The exact names of these functions are not important but their semantics are. I'm not now familiar with FORTH (I last used it more than 40 years ago), but...

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     Simon Brooke (simon_brooke@mastodon.scot)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 15:55:40 JST Simon Brooke

     in reply to

     @amszmidt ...

     1. there is no COND (there is IF...ELSE...THEN but this is much less powerful);
     2. EXECUTE is roughly equivalent to EVAL but I *think* there is no separate APPLY;
     3. There's no built in CAR, CDR, CONS but they are trivial to implement;
     4. There's sort-of EQ (you can compare pointers) but it does not seem to be idiomatically used;
     5. A reader is implicit in INTERPRET but I'm not sure that it's explicit.

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     Alfred M. Szmidt (amszmidt@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 16:27:39 JST Alfred M. Szmidt

     in reply to

     • Simon Brooke

     @simon_brooke So ... they are equivalent. 🙂 Specially in Forth, they are as readable as COND.

     : EGGSIZE ( n -- )
     DUP 18 < IF ." reject " ELSE
     DUP 21 < IF ." small " ELSE
     DUP 24 < IF ." medium " ELSE
     DUP 27 < IF ." large " ELSE
     DUP 30 < IF ." extra large " ELSE
     ." error "
     THEN THEN THEN THEN THEN DROP ;

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     Simon Brooke (simon_brooke@mastodon.scot)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 16:27:40 JST Simon Brooke

     in reply to

     @amszmidt no, seriously, they're not. You can build the logical equivalent of a COND expression with an unwieldy and unmanageable tree of IF... ELSE... THEN expressions, but the COND form is much more compact and readable.

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     abortretryfail (abortretryfail@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 18:35:39 JST abortretryfail

     in reply to

     @amszmidt
     False. A Symbolics LISP machine never failed to land a space probe.

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     Alfred M. Szmidt (amszmidt@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 20:06:10 JST Alfred M. Szmidt

     in reply to

     • abortretryfail

     @abortretryfail Not entierly sure how parse this answer.

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     abortretryfail (abortretryfail@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 20:13:33 JST abortretryfail

     in reply to

     @amszmidt Context:
     https://www.cpushack.com/2014/11/12/here-comes-philae-powered-by-an-rtx2010/

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     Panicz Maciej Godek (paniczgodek@functional.cafe)'s status on Friday, 16-May-2025 22:30:56 JST Panicz Maciej Godek

     in reply to

     • Kristopher Johnson

     @oldmankris

     Forth is when you try to say 'force' but have a lisp

     @amszmidt