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   Wolf480pl (wolf480pl@mstdn.io)'s status on Sunday, 02-Mar-2025 10:19:26 JST Wolf480pl

   in reply to

   • Ignas Kiela
   • Mikoto BSD

   @ignaloidas @mikoto I see it as a very reasonable cash grab targetted at ML developers (who do have a lot of money right now) that could help Framework raise money to better develop their laptops.
   But for reasons that are hard to understand for me, they decided to masquarade it as a portable gaming rig.

   • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Wolf480pl (wolf480pl@mstdn.io)'s status on Sunday, 02-Mar-2025 10:19:28 JST Wolf480pl

     in reply to

     • Ignas Kiela
     • Mikoto BSD

     @ignaloidas @mikoto
     If you mean stuff like finite elements method based simulation - sure, if you can do that on a GPU, that RAM will come handy.

     But I don't think there are many people who do that among those that know about Framework.

   • Embed this notice
     Ignas Kiela (ignaloidas@not.acu.lt)'s status on Sunday, 02-Mar-2025 10:19:28 JST Ignas Kiela

     in reply to

     • Mikoto BSD

     @wolf480pl@mstdn.io @mikoto@akko.wtf I'm talking about the chip more than the Framework desktop.
     
     I think the chip makes the most sense in a laptop format, but is hard to fit into existing designs - I think if a second gen of this concept comes out, we'll see a lot more laptops with it, the designs for this gen haven't properly came up yet.
     
     It still makes sense in a desktop format, but the usecases are way narrower - it makes sense when you need a GPU with a lot of memory and tight integration with a CPU, or a complete, fairly powerful system in a small size/thermal envelope - both use cases are something that there are markets for, but it's not universal, and I don't think it's amazing to buy as a gaming rig without needing it to be small/efficient - I haven't seen the marketing from Framework on whether they market it as a gaming rig in general. I see their product as more of "hey, we put this chip on a mITX mobo, and sell a case to go with it if you want", thing, than as a true expansion towards desktop form factor.

   • Embed this notice
     Ignas Kiela (ignaloidas@not.acu.lt)'s status on Sunday, 02-Mar-2025 10:19:31 JST Ignas Kiela

     in reply to

     • Mikoto BSD

     @wolf480pl@mstdn.io @mikoto@akko.wtf I mean, consider that the ram is shared - IIRC you talked about 16GB being bare minimum on the CPU side, and for GPU's, on the higher end at least 10GB for that level of GPU makes sense.
     
     And that the same chip is intended for "mobile workstations", where you do CAD and stuff, where all that RAM is very valuable. It makes sense beyond ML.

   • Embed this notice
     Wolf480pl (wolf480pl@mstdn.io)'s status on Sunday, 02-Mar-2025 10:19:32 JST Wolf480pl

     in reply to

     • Ignas Kiela
     • Mikoto BSD

     @ignaloidas @mikoto
     Yeah, it's "GPU first" but who needs a GPU with 32 GB of RAM? Mostly people who do ML.

   • Embed this notice
     Ignas Kiela (ignaloidas@not.acu.lt)'s status on Sunday, 02-Mar-2025 10:19:33 JST Ignas Kiela

     in reply to

     • Mikoto BSD

     @mikoto@akko.wtf Yeah, much more into that direction.
     
     It looks cool, but I'm absolutely not in the market for one even if I have the budget, because I do jack shit with GPU's, and the CPU side is way more important to me. I don't game, I don't do LLMs, I don't do any kind of HPC that could go on a GPU, so I have zero reason to buy a system that's GPU first, and a CPU second.

   • Embed this notice
     Mikoto BSD (mikoto@akko.wtf)'s status on Sunday, 02-Mar-2025 10:19:34 JST Mikoto BSD

     in reply to

     • Ignas Kiela
     @ignaloidas so this is kinda more like a budget Nvidia grace hopper thing I guess
     
     Yeah honestly given that they apparently did try to make camm2 work but couldn't get it stable makes it more understandable why they resorted to soldered ram. Makes sense for that sort of application.
   • Embed this notice
     Ignas Kiela (ignaloidas@not.acu.lt)'s status on Sunday, 02-Mar-2025 10:19:36 JST Ignas Kiela

     I feel like people have been misunderstanding the new AMD Ryzen AI Max chips (and relatedly, the Framework Desktop). It's not a "laptop CPU with a GPU tacked on", it's a laptop GPU with a CPU tacked on. By all accounts, it's a GPU-first system - silicon area, memory bandwidth, etc. When comparing it with other AMD laptop chips, it becomes obvious that this is a GPU first, and a CPU second.
     
     Which is why I dislike the criticism of Framework Desktop's soldered memory. Nobody bats an eye if GPU's memory is soldered (when was the last time that it wasn't?), but because people see the chip as a CPU, and thus see the soldered down ram as a regression.
     
     You should in all regards look at the chip as a GPU first, if you're considering to buy something with it. Sure, it has CPU chops, but you can get those way cheaper, and without the limitations that being attached to a GPU brings - if you're not buying it for the GPU, then get something else. Comparisons with other laptop CPU-centric chips are IMO misguided, the comparison should be done with other GPU's first, and CPU's attached to them second.