Conversation

Notices

1. Embed this notice
   Pissed Hippo (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 06:30:31 JST Pissed Hippo
   > That was an explicit anti-goal of Wayland, so that we don't circle right back to one giant display server trying to support every user case that everyone has to make work for their needs.
   
   > Wayland runs on more than just desktops, it also runs on mobile devices and embedded systems where a lot of the desktop protocols don't even make sense.
   
   aren't these two statements contradicting each other
   • Embed this notice
     Pissed Hippo (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 06:33:39 JST Pissed Hippo

     in reply to
     "x11 does too much stuff that is why wayland is needed"
     
     "you can't do this dozen conceptually simple tasks on wayland in a simple way because wayland doesn't know if it's running on a desktop, an in-car display, or vr goggles"
   • Embed this notice
     Pissed Hippo (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 06:35:18 JST Pissed Hippo

     in reply to
     I just strongly get the impression that
     
     1. something to replace x11 was needed
     2. nevertheless all the warnings about what happens when you try to start a project over from scratch are 100% true
     Doughnut Lollipop 【記録係】:blobfoxgooglymlem: and feld like this.
   • Embed this notice
     lainy (lain@lain.com)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 06:39:20 JST lainy

     in reply to
     @sun it's one of these linux issues, i have no idea why it constantly happens there, it's the same for sound with OSS/alsa/pulseaudio/wirewhatever (even though OSS works fine in freebsd). mac os had no problems going from 9 to X. BeOS was running great with both graphics and sound back in the 95 days.
     Pissed Hippo likes this.
     Doughnut Lollipop 【記録係】:blobfoxgooglymlem: repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     Pissed Hippo (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 06:42:31 JST Pissed Hippo

     in reply to

     • lainy
     @lain literally the very first thing I was ever told that we needed wayland for was that it was impossible to fix screen tearing in x11. yet even today years later this is not a fixed problem in wayland. this single thing soured me on wayland completely. I feel like we were sold a super expensive lie
     Doughnut Lollipop 【記録係】:blobfoxgooglymlem: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Pissed Hippo (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 06:43:37 JST Pissed Hippo

     in reply to

     • lainy
     @lain btw in the meantime tons of improvement has been made for screen tearing in x11 lol
     Doughnut Lollipop 【記録係】:blobfoxgooglymlem: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     lainy (lain@lain.com)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 06:44:08 JST lainy

     in reply to
     @sun
     Pissed Hippo likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Izzy (izzy@social.shadowkat.net)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 06:48:11 JST Izzy

     in reply to
     @sun I think their meaning is they want different compositors for different usecases
     X11 WMs are still managing the same X11 server, generally, but wayland compositors have to do everything themselves
     Pissed Hippo likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Pissed Hippo (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 07:01:36 JST Pissed Hippo

     in reply to

     • lainy
     • PalePimp
     @PalePimp @lain should have just copied apple's display renderer and compositor
   • Embed this notice
     PalePimp (palepimp@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 07:01:37 JST PalePimp

     in reply to

     • lainy
     @lain @sun The components in Windows, BSD/MacOS are integrated from top to bottom, in what you call Linux the OS is the sum of what would be multiple disconnected companies working with a common shared core.
     
     The correct approach to Linux is to always consider what program you are running to perform what task.
     
     The concept is no different when you install notepad+ in Windows, in Linux this concept is just extended to every component including the base tools, the people who wrote the ls or the cat command do not work for the same company that does the kernel so to speak.
     
     This is why different Linux distributions use different tools for similar tasks and why they are different from each other and have different problems and different behaviour. This is also why you have dozen of desktops with different levels of maturity for example which seem to always disagree on what's the best approach while on Windows you have an unified vision and experience for good or bad.
     
     The audio in MacOS was done by Apple for AppleOS to run on Apple hardware, vertically integrated, of course it works, they paid their devs so it works out of the box.
     
     In Linux several parts had to be worked on separately, first the kernel driver part (alsa) then the kernel itself had to improve, then people wrote software mixers (oss, pulse, jack) each tryng to solve the same problem with different priorities, then came pipewire which is better than the rest and does pulse and jack protocols too.
     
     Wayland is the same, however wayland's adoption is a disaster because as someone mentioned it is a full 100% incompatible rewrite and an untested paradigm.
   • Embed this notice
     lainy (lain@lain.com)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 07:09:58 JST lainy

     in reply to

     • PalePimp
     @PalePimp @sun that's all good but you still get screen tearing and crackling sound in linux
   • Embed this notice
     PalePimp (palepimp@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 07:13:53 JST PalePimp

     in reply to

     • lainy
     @sun @lain Systemd for example is heavily inspired on launchd from MacOS.
     
     Wayland is not as bad as people claim, trust me I am a X11 diehard and when wayland works well it trounces X11.
     
     The entire Wayland edifice and ecosystem lacks maturity. Sadly the reference implementation is useless to the point where in practical terms is like it doesn't exist other than as some kind of demo.
     
     Things are accelerating though and finally we're not that far away from running our desktops on a Wayland based compositor or another.
     
     I have been doing tests lately and while I won't run it yet, I could live with it now if I had to. Trust me I'm one of those you'll take X.org from my dead cold hands types and I can see things moving in the right direction now.
     lainy and Pissed Hippo like this.
   • Embed this notice
     Pissed Hippo (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 07:14:34 JST Pissed Hippo

     in reply to

     • lainy
     • PalePimp
     @PalePimp @lain that legitimately makes me happy.
   • Embed this notice
     PalePimp (palepimp@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 07:19:52 JST PalePimp

     in reply to

     • lainy
     @lain @sun What kernel, what distro, what hardware?
     
     It works in all my computers just fine, I run mostly on AMD hardware though.
     
     I can tell you that of all my friends I'm the one with no audio issues ever and I'm the only one running Linux.
     
     My mic always work, my headset always work, resetting the sound mixer always works, I can record anything, I can connect any input to any output, bluetooth works always, etc.
     
     What I do though is get rid of things not supported or problematic ASAP, buying a bluetooth dongle for $7 that has a broken crashy driver and keeping it is stupid, get one that's supported. Same for wifi dongles that do not have mainlined kernel support, to the bin it goes. Same for audio stuff. Linux is no different than Windows or MacOS, trying to use a piece of equipment not supported is asking for unnecessary problems.
   • Embed this notice
     Pissed Hippo (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 07:19:52 JST Pissed Hippo

     in reply to

     • lainy
     • PalePimp
     @PalePimp @lain before I switchd to macos in the last year or so my sound started crackling and usb3 stopped working, had to do a bunch of interventions to get it all to work again. that said I have a Linux box for AI that's new and it works fine
   • Embed this notice
     PalePimp (palepimp@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 07:23:52 JST PalePimp

     in reply to

     • lainy
     @sun @lain What hardware, what kernel, if I get stutter or any issue is driver related I roll back to the previous version and check if it has been reported, usually doesn't hurt to run the old version of something for a while.
     
     I had to do that in an old Mac Mini that ran kernel 6.6 fine but breaks with 6.11, nothing happens if you roll back to a previously working version, that is expected.
     
     See what is happening from Win10 to 11, everybody is complaining lately of slowdowns regressions, etc and there is people reinstalling 10 because they can't work with 11.
     
     That is part and parcel of computing, Linux is no different.
   • Embed this notice
     Pissed Hippo (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 07:23:52 JST Pissed Hippo

     in reply to

     • lainy
     • PalePimp
     @PalePimp @lain Linux is fine it's just not perfect
   • Embed this notice
     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 20:02:19 JST 翠星石

     in reply to
     @PalePimp @lain @sun >multiple disconnected companies working with a common shared core.
     The core is GNU, which targets GNU/Hurd or GNU/Linux-libre.
     
     Don't forget that GNU and X11 predate Linux.
     
     >the people who wrote the ls or the cat command do not work for the same company that does the kernel so to speak.
     The people who wrote those commands are from GNU and do not work on or for Linux.